Greatest I am

A really hard question on Satan and deception.

You all know that I always have answers for everything but these ones have me stumped.

That or Satan is deceiving me. How could I know?

If angels have free will, why has one never shown themselves?

There are apparently good angels and evil angels that have been renamed as demons.

If either of these showed itself, we could not distinguish it from God himself. No one has ever seen God.

Would we accept it as God and be deceived?

After all, it is said by God that Satan has the power to deceive the whole world.

Knowing this, and knowing that most of the world belongs to one religion or another. It follows that most people in these religions have been deceived.

How then can believers be so sure that they follow the right God?

As scripture indicates that most if not all will be following the wrong God thanks to deception.

Are you somehow immune to Satan, who can deceive the whole world?

If atheists are deceived, then there really is a God.

If believers are deceived, then there really is no God.

If a believer, how do you get around this catch 22.

Are morals the only good way around it?

If so, then if you are a believer that believes that Sodom or the genocide of Noah’s day is good justice, does that mean that you have been deceived?

Because on the face of it, since non believers are a minority and think it evil, then you, as part of the majority and think it good, must be wrong.

Is genocide then a good thing or an evil thing?

Careful, you have definitely been deceived if God was right. Satan has deceived you.

Regards

DL

moo

I basically share your view.

I see the bible in the same way I see all the older books of religion. All were intended to be books of wisdom.

Like you say, sometimes your have to denounce the morality it shows to end up seeing the wisdom in it.

It is a good book for stimulating thought.

It is not quite a fairy tale but all fairy tales have good moral values in them. Or they try to in any case.

Regards

DL

AS i read it God, was afraid that if men could do "this" meaning build the tower, they soon would be able to do anything so in fear of this the gods confused their languages...

 

And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

I like the idea of men putting fear in God's heart.

If only that God actually existed to feel it.

Regards

DL

How can you doubt it when it says it as clearly as the Bible ever says anything?

 

 

Plains. Tower. Top in heaven. So what's to doubt?

 

What is to doubt in the Bible?

Everything to me. Nothing to those who believe it to be the WORD of God..

And as far as dominion goes, it's not who is ruling the land that's in question. It's about what mankind was doing with this second chance God gave them. Building a tower to reach heaven through some kind of back door, like hackers looking to scam the system. So God sends them a virus that messes up the program language.

 

Instead of the dominion argument, why are you passing up the chance to point out that God seems a little scared here? As Moontanman points out, God seems fearful that man will be able to accomplish anything if he lets them get away with this.

 

Here again a theist would just deny this and say that man was getting uppity and needed a good dose of God’s wrath. Theists are quite enamored by God’s wrath. They are trained to fear God.

At least the dominion angle leads to other issues that I can tie them up in knots with.

They bob and weave out of those knots of course but never in a logical way.

And who exactly is God talking to when he says, "Behold" and, "Come, let us go down"? Who is "us"?

You underestimate theists and how they can bob and weave and delude themselves.

God would be talking to his angels of course. To a theist that assumption is iron clad.

Regards

DL

As I understood it, it was supposed to be an object lesson against excessive pride. The earth had previously been flooded, and now mankind had the opportunity to be of one language, united in purpose, striving to do as God commanded in order to be worthy of heaven. But they wasted their efforts on trying to build a tower to reach heaven instead, sniped

This I doubt as I am sure that if the ancients wanted to build anything to reach the sky, they would have started on a high plateau and not in the low lands.

Further, who has dominion over the earth?Did God not give man dominion?

If so, God lost all rights to tell man what to do.

If he did not IYO, then the Bible lies.

Btw, why do you link to obviously biased sources to make your point? Why not use the original scriptures as a baseline? I think it would remove your blatant agenda from the discussion, make any conclusions you draw a lot stronger and help you avoid any mistakes those other sites may have made. I think there is enough to criticize about this explanation of why we speak different languages without any need for pre-digested conclusions.

Actually, there was nothing better out there that I could find otherwise I would have complicated the O p a bit.

Regards

DL

Moo

Thanks for that.

I will not know if I agree with the morals of this story till I have a better idea of what it is.

I am with you though on the immorality of most of what bible God does.

Regards

DL

Why did God divide the people of Babel?

I know that most here do not believe this myth.

There are usually some moral reason given for God acting against mankind.

I cannot dither out any good moral reason for Babel.

Can you?

Regards

DL

What you say makes sense. But how does that support Greatest I Am's original premise? He says that God have up the right to punish along with dominion (we'll use your definition of dominion in this context). Can the General not discipline an individual soldier if he sees the need to?

There can only be one king in a country and one dominion. His.

He can delegate authority for sure but nothing should be without his say so.

God spoke of dominion. Not partial or shared. Full dominion.

Regards

DL

Where's the contradiction?

I explained it. Read again for the first time.

Regards

DL

Actually the bible is written so that there is only one interpretation. It interprets itself.

 

Whose interpretation of the O T takes precedent.

I E.

The Jews who wrote the O T call Eden our elevation, while Christianity interprets it as our fall.

Who is correct and has authority over the O T?

In the N T, Paul does not agree with james on faith virsus deeds.

Which is correct in your self interpreting book?

DL

-------------------------------------

nath88

You say Jesus led an exemplary life.

I do not agree.

His example of vicarious redemption is a completely immoral act.

To teach that the murder of an innocent man is a good way for others to shed their responsibilities for sin is a miscarriage of justice.

The guilty should pay their dues. Not the innocent.

Regards

DL

The reason the bible is written that way is that, God is looking for ones that want to find him, and then he can give it to the ones he wants.

But everyone gets a chance. But God gave man to try their own way of ruling, no one can say they didn't have a chance to try it. We see the results of that.

Quite the contradiction there.

If we all get a chance then God is not restricted to giving it to only those he wants.

Your theology breaks down everywhere you post.

Do try to think before you write.

Regards

DL

The bible says God gave his son because he loved the world so much. Jesus did it willing.

We can learn allot form this.

God set in place away to redeem mankind.Adam lost a perfect life, Jesus gave that back

Satan's taunt to God was man will only serve God for what they get out of him, when it came to they life they would be disloyal. ( to save themselves)

Jesus proved that wrong.

 

So you could think that would you give up your son for people other people, is that was the only way to save their life? Jesus did that willing for his Father, and for man. Even though he would suffer, as a human. It also shows that God, uses legal means, a life for a life.

The only way!!!

You limit your God. Tsk tsk.

Sripture also refutes your claim but you do not care about scriptures to begin with.

Regards

DL

 

Satan took over ruling the world on his own and man followed him. But Gods purpose still remains the same. He gives all men a choice of who they will follow. Most don't want, God's rule, because it means a change in life style and accountability. But some do. In the end only the people that want will survive. That will fulfill the prophecies.

 

 

 

 

God allowed Satan to rule for a time, because man ( because Adam chose Satan). But God will take that rulership away, from Satan. That is what Armageddon is all about.

Justice delayed is justice denied.

If your God is stupid enough to let satan, who can deceive the whole world run free after God created his prison, then he is insane.

A farmer does not put the fox in the chicken coop unless he wants his chickens eaten.

If that is the case with your God, then he is just as big a fool as scriptures make him out to be.

Your last make s your God an Indian giver and this makes you proud of him. Yuk.

Regards.

DL

!

Moderator Note

Greatest I am, people will find it a lot easier to discuss issues with you if you stop preaching and start debating. This isn't your personal blog, it's a discussion forum, and regardless of whether or not people agree with the content of what you say, you should follow our rules and conduct in a civil argument. Preaching and 'soap boxing' is against the rules.

 

Do not make things worse by arguing with a moderation note. Take it to heart and follow the rules.

My reply was directly against his preaching for the notion of us to try to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

Quite an immoral stance.

You might check what prompts a reply, not just the reply.

Regards

DL

If there is no economic crisis why would we need to solve it?

A good reason for stabilizing a socio economic demographic pyramid is to end waste at the bottom.

In human terms, that means saving about 10 million wasted lives a year through pooverty related causes, and take perhaps 1 billion up a notch in standard of living.

Regards

DL

The question that the OP does not literally ask, but that I can see hidden in that post is: who is responsible for our problems now: the lenders (banks and investors) who gave money to the debtors until the debtors got into trouble, or the debtors for accepting all that money until they were in trouble?

 

I think both are responsible for this situation. And therefore I partially agree with the OP that the lenders are (also) in control of the economy. I also agree that the lenders are largely left alone, while all the focus is on the debtors. I think it's not too much to ask that lenders (banks / investors) also take some responsibility, and that they are a little more careful where they give their money.

 

It's not just countries (Greece) that got into trouble because it was too easy to borrow money. It's especially the individual people who were able to take a mortgage that was just too high for their income. While you can expect a country to have financial advisors, you can't expect the guy on the street to understand all the risks involved with borrowing money... and that's where I think the ' lenders' should take more responsibility.

Well put.

It may be that the rich cannot take more responsibility unless forced to do so.

What the rich cause is to some extent not in their control.

It happens inadvertently and not in a conscious control.

Regards

DL

One fact must be remembered that lenders survive when borrowers dwell. Economic development needs the growth of lenders, no doubt, but it leads to increase in number of borrowers. Lenders can increase when they have borrowers.

Besides, economic crisis is really broad and not limited to lenders or borrowers.

True but the engine runs on borrowing and lending.

Regards

DL

Well first of all you have to understand what the bible actually says.

 

The first man Adam was disloyal to God. It was a question of loyalty. Adam was perfect, but with free choice. We are not robots.God only wants people that want to follow him. Because Adam lost his life and perfection he passed that on to alll men. Becasue God cares for man, he give him length of time to go his own way. But warned throughout the bible of the results. We see that today, and throught mans history.

 

Now God cared for man so much that he gave his Son Jesus, life, to ransom back the perfect life lost. Think about this, would you give up your son for that lives of others? That is what God did.

So any deaths or any pain or suffering, is totally from Satan's and mans hands . No one elses. Satan took on the rulership of mankind when Adam followed him , instead of God.

 

 

The bible was written about the people of those times but is for the people that came after the bible was written.

 

Everything we need to know about God is in the bible.

After Jesus, Christians were not to learn war anymore. We have the example in Jesus. That means that Chrsitians that get involved in governments and wars etc, are not following God.. They are what the bible calls false worshipers. Satan is the ruler of the world, and as such includes governments, and religions.( includeing Christendom.)

 

So what we are looking at, in this world is casued by Satan and man, not God. He never want this for us.

 

So what the means is, if some are not for God they are agianst him. And all the mess we see is thier own fault.

You say that God did not want slaves of A & E and wanted them to use their free will.

You are aware are you not of God's sissy fit the first time A & E did do their will and not God's.

Damed right he wants slaves.

As to your Jesus scapegoat.

It is not moral to profit from the murder of an innocent man.

Keep thinking you should and you are going to end in hell.

Regards

DL

But what some have missed about this, is, that God gave Satan and man a determined time before God would step in. ( because he knew how it would turn out)

 

So, right from the 1st prophecy in the bible, God told us all the he would takes Satan's influence over man away from him. And those people that want to follow God and not this system ( under Satan), would have that opportunity, to do so. That is what Armageddon is about.

 

 

 

But the bible also says very few really want to serve God the way he requires. That has alsways been the case. If you look at the flood, 8 people survived out of a approxiatly 1million. Abraham was the only one, Job also was singled out, when Jesus came he did not go to the religious leaders he started with only himself and choose a few, to follow him.( which grew in time)

 

The vast amjourity follow Satans world.

So God is not to blame, for the mess we see. People can only blame themselves and Satan. God is our ownly way out.

Do you blame people for not following the guidance and laws from your God?

Hell, they are quite barbaric.

He tells us to follow his genocidal ways and even kills his own son for a ransom that he himself set.

Your God is insane.

Will you follow him that far? If so, then you need a shrink.

Regards

DL

I

The bible calls these one the man of lawlessness. This term comes from the Pharisees. They were to despence the Law, to the people. But they made up theri own rules (laws). That is the same today in Chrsitendom, they are to despence the teachings of Jesus, but make up theri own ideas. That is why the bible calls then the man of lawlessness.

 

 

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:3-5

New International Version (NIV)

 

 

 

³ Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness^[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. ⁴ He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. ⁵ Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

 

 

 

 

 

So many strangers to watch for . Quite the riddle the Bible plays.

Yet your God keeps hiding in the bushes.

Regards

DL

There was an estimated 1 milion people on the earth at the time of the flood, 8 people survived. What is the percentage of that?

It is not about being sold on something it's about want to serve God the way he wants. Not many really will do that.

 

 

 

 

Matthew 7:13-14

New International Version (NIV)

 

 

The Narrow and Wide Gates

¹³ "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. ¹⁴ But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

 

 

Some do not know the bible at all. If they did they would know this.

Yes. And reject a God who is such a loser.

You will note how God does better elsewhere.

You can make that book of myths say almost anything.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

None are ever lost to God. A true God would have it no other way.

Regards

DL

There is no economic crisis.

The news is full of hysteria and dread as to how much of a an economic crisis the world is in. Rome trembles. So to speak.

I submit that it is all part of the social manipulation that is at work on us by the media. They only focus on the debtors and ignore the lenders.

These lenders are in actual control of the economy.

If mankind wants to end the so called economic crisis, all mankind need do is rein in those run away rich lenders.

Let us not forget, those nations in debt; Greece comes to mind, should also be made to come to heel on it‘s extravagances.

Woe to the rich. The tax man cometh.

If there were an actual economic crisis, it would be the lenders in the news and not the debtors.

Regards

DL

God. Profit from Murder and Genocide? Get serious.

When reading the Bible, the facts show God as setting a ransom for forgiving man. That ransom was Jesus. God then sets the conditions to have Jesus murdered. Thus is how all sins, for all of eternal time, are forgiven. God does not do anything half way. After all, He would not want to break his own word and sin again.

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Psa 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him.

Father God screwed up and he is having his son Jesus bear the iniquity that he himself created. An insane act.

No sane God would waste a son so needlessly. This is obvious I think to most.

This is the conclusion that one must come to, if we make Jesus part of the Trinity. This is unacceptable, as God would not murder his son.

This kills the Trinity notion.

Otherwise, God Goes straight to hell for murder.

As above, so below. The believers duty is to follow God’s example. The first commandment.

If you would NOT do such, ( murder your own son ), and you are of the Abraham religions, then you are not a true follower. You have placed yourself above God.

Rather a catch 22.

The genocide of Noah’s day would also be an example of God profiting from murder. At a wholesale price. It boils down to God having a reality that he did not like, to a position of God having a reality that he liked better. Strangely, some even say that God does not change.

The God that I know does not work that way.

If your God does, and you follow this God, you should question why you do.

To follow your God, you would have to be willing to kill your own children, as well as use genocide on the rest of mankind, as you follow an unfathomable, impossible to understand, alien God.

How does that make you feel?

Poorly I hope. Does it make you want to trade in your God for a new and improved model?

One who will not ask you to go insane with him. All that just because he found something that he did not create. Iniquity. This, God had to learn as he had not known it was in him.

Regards

DL

The store manager at the company I work for has dominion over the entire store and all of its employees. But the district manager has dominion over him, and in turn, over all the things the store manager has dominion of. Your premise is broken. The rest of your post is irrelevant. Try again.

This tells me that you cannot refute the premise and have run from an actual discussion.

I have seen what you had to offer elsewhere and would not learn anything from what you have to say in the first place.

I also see that you do not wish to learn.

Regards

DL

But Greatest, surely the examples you cite, Sodom and the Flood, don't show God enforcing His laws. They show Him punishing people for disobeying His Law.

 

Exactly the point. He is enforcing his law but his law is not the law of the land.

 

Man’s law is the law of the land since man has sovereignty here. Not God. He gave it up.

 

England gave India back it’s sovereignty. What do you think the Indians would do if England decided to return whenever they want, and where their laws conflict with the Indian one, decided to impose their rules and punishments?

 

You know quite well what would happen. War. Yet you would have man just roll over when God does it.

 

And that is the crucial difference.

 

What difference.

 

When a judge punishes a criminal, is that not part of the process of enforcing the law. Certainly it is. It begins with a police arrest and ends in a sentence when the person is found guilty.

 

Obviously God could force us to obey Him. But of what value would such obedience be, if forced upon us?

 

That is not obvious at all. He would have to stop hiding wherever he is.

 

Do you see his form of free choice -----do things my way or burn forever----as a true free unhindered choice.

 

It is a threat demanding compliance.

 

 

We would be nothing but robots, forced to obey God's programming. No - God wants us to behave righteously, and obey His laws, of our own free will. He wants us to choose to do the right thing, because it is right. Not because He's forced us to do it.

 

Then he should not threaten us with hell.

 

He has offered us plenty of guidance on what is the right thing. Guidance is provided by the Bible - and especially, by lucid advice straight from the lips of His personal representative on Earth, Jesus Christ. How much more can we ask for?

 

But at the end of the day, it's up to us to choose. If despite all the good advice, we still choose to behave badly - of our own free will - then it seems to me, that God's acting entirely within His rights to punish us.

 

Only if you deny that he gave man dominion here.

Is that what you are doing?

Would you really like to live under the laws of your God?

Regards

DL

God gave up the right to punish along with dominion.

God, in Eden, gave man dominion over the whole earth and all the entities on it.

Some also believe that Satan was given dominion here. If the temptation of Jesus is believed to have literally happened then this supports the notion that Satan has dominion or the temptation was a farce that Jesus would have seen through. He did not deny Satan’s dominion.

If God gave dominion to man and it was somehow transferred to Satan, then God would have giving up any right that he would have to punish anyone here because he does no longer had dominion here.

As above so below indicates that if he can punish us and basically usurp the sovereignty of Satan or man, then this policy is what man should follow. This says that some other country coming to enforce their laws in our countries, would be allowed and proper. I cannot see any country allowing this and if they cannot, then God also cannot.

God is shown quite often as coming to earth and enforcing his laws. Sodom and the genocide in Noah’s day are prime examples of his doing so.

My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of my lips.

—Psalm 89:34

Who has dominion on earth?

Does God have a right to enforce his law?

If so, why?

If not, then is he breaking his own word?

Regards

DL

Atheists revenge. Persecution of theists.

This was written in response to a theist crying about non theists attacking theists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_QXpzxj3Dc&feature=player_embedded#!

Do you want a free ride to abuse whomever you like?

Is reciprocity not fair play?

Is fighting brain washing with brainwashing not fair?

To suggest that non theist should not fight what is demonstrably evil is to ask good men to do nothing while evil is allowed to grow.

Religions have persecuted the non religious and now bitch when thinking people show that faith without facts is for fools and that theists theologies do not hold water.

Faith is defined as a firm belief in something for which there is no proof.

Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.

Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.

Martin Luther

What is more valuable?

A belief that has nothing to back it up or a belief based on reason, logic and proofs?

As to non believers persecuting someone with belief, this does not happen from what I can see. Ridicule, yes. Humor, yes. Logic and reason, yes. Anger when illogical answers are given, yes.

I see this from the POV of a religionist in the non believer camp because I cannot abide by what other religionists are doing. Bottom line. Persecution is demonstrably a religious tool. Not a non believers tool.

Non theist engage theists, not for any negative reasons, but only from what most non believers see as their duty to their fellow man against divisive tribal forces, led by absentee Gods with demonstrably poor morals.

Do believers really believe that non believers let evils like you see below grow?

African witches and Jesus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI&feature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9

Promoting death to Gays.

Not if atheists and non believers of all stripes maintain their social conscious and duty to their fellow man. That same social conscience that is lacking in far to many black theist hearts. Non theists are the ones fighting for the protection of children’s minds, fighting the denial of equality for women and fighting to end theist persecution of Gays.

If you as a theist do not recognize what non believers and those of faith who come against you do so for benevolent purposes, then your dogmas, indoctrination and brainwashing has blinded you the same way you want to blind your children. This is from one who is not an atheist but one of your own who has rejected your views for a more sane and moral one.

You are calling good evil and evil good as you embrace your genocidal son murdering God who, with his pocket full of miracles, could have taken the moral high ground instead of usurping Satan’s role as the most evil entity known to man.

Theist and religions are going down for the count. Sane and moral people are onto you so you may as well get used to crying and complaining and bitching because your days are numbered.

Isaiah 5:20

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

God said that the high would be brought low and the low high.

Religion has been flying high, drunk with the power of their tyrannical Gods and putting fear of a non existent God in in the hearts of sane men to quiet them. There are finally enough sane people around who will not stand by and let your evil grow and you will be put down soon just as you deserve.

Beware persecution for sure theists. Take heart though. The hearts of those you have persecuted for so long are not near as blood thirsty or black as yours. Those against you do not have tyrannical leaders. They follow men of integrity. A word that you can never apply to your pedophile protecting proctors.

You can thank non believing men and atheist for this and not your pathetic immoral Gods.

This from this religionist who is sickened by his own fellow religionists who have rejected logic and reason for the faith of fools and belief in fantasy, miracles and magic.

Regards

DL

On growing up to be, as God says, one of us.

Gen. 3 22

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,

If God were here, he would tell you that if you do not do as shown belowe and conquer God, you will never have an apotheosis and begin to mirror his thinking. That is the only way to know God. You have to grow into God just as Jesus did.

Hebr. 5 8

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Note the word became.

Matt. 10 38

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Note how we are to carry a burden. Not have him carry ours as our vicarious scapegoat and sacrifice.

I submit that Jesus’ burden and ours are the same. He showed that he learned of God only with a struggle and only after doing so, could he then interpret scriptures and argue with the Rabbis of the day.

The Rabbis did not like his giving all men a route to God that did not need the temple hierarchy and the funding they enjoyed. Jesus had in fact become a Gnostic Christian thanks to his apotheosis. This is likely why he was killed.

He said that we are all son’s of God. Nothing has changed except that we have all forgotten that fact. Scriptures are full of such references.

How do you conquer God the way Jesus did?

By accepting the fact that you are in control in a natural world without any supernatural aspect. No fantasy, miracles or magic.

Or as A & E and Jesus did, study good and evil till you have a firm paradigm and then make you challenge or petition to God by seeking and knocking hard on his door. If you have things right, it will be opened to you.

This you must do to have God say to you.

Gen 3 22 Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:

God says you can and so does Jesus.

This bishop tells you how it is done.

Trust me, apotheosis is worth the effort.

Regards

DL

Surely, this is the whole point of the Christian religion.

 

Yes - God does have responsibility for what he created. He created human beings. And we human beings, always fall into sin. Sinning is in our nature. We can't help doing it.

 

If as you say, we are only following our programming as written by God, why would he deny us salvation in the first place. What is there to forgive? Us following the programming he put in us in the first place?

 

Why not just change the program?

 

Is that not a more logical thing to do.

 

So by ourselves, unaided, we cannot attain salvation.

 

Scripture does not agree with you.

 

 

Ezekiel 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

 

Psalm 49:7

None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

 

 

God recognised this, and provided the aid we need - in the person of His son, Jesus Christ.

 

Christ took on the burden of human sin. He assumed responsibility for our sins. And paid the price, by suffering in agony, nailed to the cross.

 

What an amazing act of moral responsibility! God, the majestic King of the Universe, submitting to such humiliation, at the hands of us sinners. In order to save us.

 

If that's not stepping up to His responsibilities, I don't know what is.

 

If God set it up, it is murder. If Jesus did, it was self aggrandizing suicide.

Both immoral acts.

Is that not a more logical thing to do.

Some like to use the analogy of a soldier throwing himself on an enemy grenade to save his chum.

No argument. We would respect that act.

To have the scenario more accurate though, you have to remember that God set the conditions or ransom to be paid. IOW, God threw the grenade and then sent his son to throw himself on it. That deserves no respect as it is an insane God doing an insane act.

Why have you forsaken me----because it is a piss poor lesson to have people think that the murder of an innocent man, will take the responsibility for sin away from sinners.

Read that quote above one more time and think about it.

Here is some help.

Regards

DL

Charm

Good grief.

Do you believe all you hear without giving it thought?

“It would seem that science is discovering that we don't have 'free wills'.”

I have a little test that lets you prove to yourself that you have a free will. Within the bounds of nature and physics of course. No you cannot defy gravity.

Let me know if you want to prove free will to yourself. It is short and easy. No tricks.

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“HE must know how things will pan out, due to 'cause and effect'“

He must eh. He must be bored out of his mind then. No wonder he is insane enough have his own son murdered needlessly.

Are you aware of the uncertainty principle and do you give it veracity?

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“irreducible complexity, digital code in dna.”

I’m not used to thinking of this term but, as DNA replicates, I understand that errors occur. Is that not reducing the complexity of the digital code of DNA.

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“His Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, “

Yet he could not maintain heaven pristine. Satan and sin were born there.

Yet he could not get A & E out of Eden or have them remain, whatever he wanted, without throwing a sissy fit against the earth and the yet unborn mankind. Original sin.

How an omnipotent God could not know that it was better to reboot Eden and not wait till later to use genocide in Noah’s day, should tell anyone with half a brain that God is not omnipotent.

Regards

DL

I certainly don't mean to 'preach' but rather convey some of my 'understanding' of these issues we are discussing, and I may very well be wrong in what I 'believe' hence why I'm asking you questions. Your irritation at my response suggests you will not have the patience or good will to be of much help to me. If I'm wrong then let's carry on with this discussion.

 

I don't believe in a literal talking snake, but maybe the Genesis account is figurative. Maybe it's a load of rubbish!

 

Why do you believe the God of the Bible is a fool to require the shedding of blood? We all die and therefore nature 'requires' the shedding of blood.

 

I'll go back to my cave for now.........

Firstly, the bible says so.

Secondly, it is not logical. If you think it is, then show a logic trail that ties blood to forgiveness for any reason other than whim.

Thirdly, what kind of an S O B God would set the condition that his own son be murdered before he ever so kindly forgives men that he thinks are less than ants to him.

That God would clearly be insane.

Fourthly, right justice.

Regards

DL