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Mike Smith Cosmos

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  1. Sure . But I would ask you to let me sleep on it , as I have had a rather heavy day , and I am ' bushed ' at this moment . But , I will get back on the case , shortly ! Mike
  2. Well ,I must say , you appear very learned in the subject as it stands today . I cannot compete on mainstream knowledge of the areas you cover . However , I feel I have something to offer , on the area you seem very sensitive about , namely the presence of a superior set of beings , to man ! I would take as my source threefold things . 1. In any documentry comments about ' life bearing ' creation , that are to hand . 2 . Any extrapolated reasoning on today's technology , that could prove beneficial now in this 21 st century , toward a possible current insight into " how a set of high brow engineers/ scientists ,/experienced beings " could possibly go about seeding a world. As we have today . 3. Any imaginative ideas. Which could support the proposal for the origin and structure of life (living things ) on Earth . As an introductory mention of these three aspects 1. In any documentry comments about ' life bearing ' creation , that are to hand , it speaks about " Let us create man in our image . " Several things there : 'US ' clearly referring to a numberless set of designers, experimenters , constructors , who are not unlike us in some way . Which is heartening . 2. By our experience to date a set of well equipped laboratories or the equivalent would be required. Also our experience with transplants and the like shows a requirement to the living being , kept alive, but unconscious , while final touches or constructional surgery take place . 3. If you imagine this going on for both the animal , fish , flying creature population , the facility would be quite vast.
  3. YES , but this is what it's really like out there . I used to live near the Lake District north west England . On some of the non tourist lakes , they were not dissimilar from this picture. Also in Scotland . I agree the salt flats look a bit barren . But my point is :- God ( whatever God is , which I imagine it being Massive ( if not spread throughout the Universe,) with capability beyond imagination , power unlimited , scientific engineering skills and capability to make a CERN engineer weep , design mentality capablility to make a first year Art Student turn from Art to 'bee keeping ' . Power to make today's ' dragsters get jealous , yet human sensitivities to make poets and philanthropists cry. ( Forgetting for the moment the poor artists that have to imitate this scenery , ) or philosophers trying to get to grips with this lot . Why should not an entity so large yet benign exist , to oversee the greatest Civil Engineering Project , Ever even dreamt about . We are indeed privileged to even consider such an Entity Existing at all. Mike
  4. Jk That looks big ! How much did it measure , from your picture ? Say from the top of its front legs , to the bottom of its back legs ? Quote your comment :- "What 'appeals' is irrelevant. What evidence are you drawing the conclusion that there is a hierarchy above us from? " unquote . The overwhelming evidence for me is :- the utter , utter , utter difference between the contents of the Earth , with all its atmosphere , blue skies, seas , mountains , ecosystems , animals , fish birds and human population, with all its activity . When you compare this with every other planet we have managed to observe . Earth stands out as an It stands out like an utter , utter , utter GEMSTONE of a beacon of Intelligent Creation by somebody/something , a GOD ? You tell me who did it if God did not do it . We have seen NOTHING YET that comes anywhere near it , in all our searchings ! Mike
  5. . . I think the case rests .. ! We clearly believe , what we want to believe ! I accept the analytical aspect of science as it changes as it moves forward . But I also believe there are much higher beings in the HIERACHY above mankind . I can't really help what appeals to me as the truth ! . . . . mike . . .
  6. Quite so . That was a rather impulsive remark for me to have made . What I should have said is , that , in the great scheme of things , however God decided to develop water navigating creatures to swarm and occupy the seas and rivers of Earth. I imagine he developed the principle of underwater fish as swimming creatures much in the shape principle we have today , namely a streamlined head, a thrusting tail , fins to guide and a muscular body to provide thrust . Starting with a few basic types , he no doubt used the principle of natural selection to refine the designs in their various habitats ,during the design stage , . However , I wasn't there but there are fossil records which do show the basic types and their development . So yes it was stupid of me to suggest God made goldfish , as they are. As you say , man has no doubt bred some fish to look nice and red, gold , and small for ornament . I think if 'one thinks' of God in this capacity with fish , as a massive laboratory of breeding and selection assistants . Which is probably wrong , but I for one need a sort of visualisation to get my head around it . Then repeat that for all the different animal and fish types , then set them breeding . Well , it's just an Image , to go on . ( it's better than 'turtles all the way down ' as Prof Steven Hawkins , was once told from the audience , at one of his lectures. ) . And so with all the other creatures until you come to Man . And we all have the gist for that description . Certainly , the Mesopotamian evidence is all there for Mankind to make its debut in the region that is recently being torn to shreds! Mike ps . All because I accidentally said God made goldfish ! What a blunder !
  7. Yes! But that is exactly my point . Cars are designed by Man . In a special way ,( not waving a magic wand ) :- Gold fish are a design process of / from a GOD . ..... QED.
  8. Yes , I rather feared that you would reply in that sort of analytical way . And I must say as I was typing my comments , I did reason to myself , that individual analysis of the various functions , can indeed be listed in the way you describe . But if you did do such a listing , surely ,( please don't hit me over the head ) . BUT it's still not , an entity A GOLD FISH SWIMMING AROUND IN MY POOL , Surely . Its Like coming across a list of the contents of the various parts of a Rolls Royse Car and a pile of steel , aluminium , copper and brass and saying there is the ingredients of a car , what more do you want ? Oh and here is a guide how to build it. It's still a pile of ingredients , not a swish RR ready to drive away . One is a pile of bits . The other is LIFE . IF you will excuse my rather crude similarity . It is not meant in an offensive way , but as a genuine conversation about the wonder of LIFE compared to the material contents and the mechanism of living things. Ps . Having read through that list of disciplines in the form of various ' OLOGY's in order to UNDERSTAND and build a living Gold Fish . If you could master ALL those OLOGY's all at once or in a sequence even , you would be a God . QED Mike
  9. One of the philosophers like Decart or Lock, or another posited , that " if the universe was totally predictable , it would not work ! " It needs the freedom of movement , variability , chance , . True there are laws bound up in particles , fields , and all manner of scientific principles , that modern science has uncovered. Yet use them to describe , these fish of mine moving about , current science , would be hard pressed to put this picture of swimming fish , in any meaningful way . Use science to show that they are alive, thinking , deciding, eating , observing , concluding , I think it would struggle. Move on the human EXISTANCE , sentience, awareness, appreciation, consciousness, and science would struggle to use its current systems to handle , Life , EXISTANCE, consciousness, awareness , appreciation, affection and a pelethera of other living experiences. It is this latter experience , that is explained outside of science as we know it ! And yet that is the area of discussion proposed here , in this thread . You might be tempted to say , " well why debate it here in a Science Forum " My answer would be " because science NEEDS it in order to make major inroads into human understanding and the future of humanity. Mike
  10. Perhaps one of an immediate proofs is the first line of your SINATURE STRIP . namely . :- . " LIFE IS THE POETRY OF THE UNIVERSE " . . If the Universe was all just matter , dust , and rock , , we might be struggling to say there is a God . Like going to some of the moons and planets , just minerals , rocks , dust , no atmosphere. .. But under our noses is LIFE , PLANTS , ANIMALS , Here on Earth its crawling with Life ... Surely that is proof of a GOD .? At least enough for your comment " Prove god and we'll talk about god " mike
  11. Yes , but , it's bound to be like that . You can't expect to pick up , from under a rock , a two ton octopus looking thing , and plonk it on the table , and say , there you go , I just caught God , under a rock , here he is , let's ask a few questions ! the best you are going to get is descriptions found in sacred text, written or spoken . By someone much higher up the HIERACHY , than any of us , I would think . What is more likely is knowledge passed down over the century's, that purports to shed some light on this missing bit of the HIERACHY , between man and God . Thats why I have been consecrating on the me-human to goldfish relationship , as that I would have thought demonstrates on a much reduced scale , the interaction between God and Man . Thats what I have been saying about , I clearly caring much more and in detail for my Goldfish than they care for me . Clearly that is repeated on a much higher part of the ( God - Human ) HIERACHY Most people are giving little care for God , but clearly God is giving far greater care for us . ( or we would all be dead by now ) . That is just one minutia of the story , but it should give a lead in to far more issues. Mike
  12. I am not sure it is wise to catagorise my comments of possible conditions in the strata of " above human life forms " , as UNSUBSTANTIATED. That would be unnessisarily dismissive of things unseen and not of the normal run of things. And then replace them with ' normal and more familiar conditions ' purely because they are easier to prove! True , credibility needs to come from a more ' roundabout ' route, but I believe that is worth the trouble . Point 1. Being . The universe is full to bursting with Cause and Effect . Eg One thing causes another thing to happen. So obvious. Yet , here we have a vast, complicated , energetic., productive universe. Yet we as humans have been responsible for so, so little of it. Yet here we are asking " Where has all this come about , and what actually produced it . My explanation is A designer, manufacturer/ manufacturing system beyond anything we can barely comprehend ( just perhaps ). Yet we can't imagine the detail, or system easily . That is just one example of my " a more ' roundabout ' route " mike
  13. What has come out of this topic of HIERACHY for me , is quite extraordinary . Firstly God exists at the top of this HIERACHY , it appears to originate from the Bottom up. Namely by combining the latest theory for the origin of the Material Universe, we are put in the position , if God were to originate the universe , relative to our size , it was very, very small. The size of a Higgs particle , some millions upon millions smaller than an atom . And that is all there was . By inflation it grew , and I presume GOD GREW WITHIT , ( keeping abreast of the universe he was creating ) . At an inflationary way , it grew , to a bit smaller than a marble. This then continued to grow , under the auspices of God , to the Universe we are aware of today. So now God is universe wide in size with a thinking system to match . His ,first advanced life to create ( we are told ) , were Sons of God ( a number ) but not specified, ( they got up to mischief before the flood ) then followed the creation of Angels , ( some 100, 000,000 ) . Along side all this the material universe was developing , I suppose in much the way science has documented it . Then , maybe the first Man was made "in our image " ( presumably in some way ' like the angles and sons of God. ) . All this latter human life after the development of animals including ' Fish... So in an outline form we can see the Human HIERACHY develops across the Universe . That is of course , if you wish to include all I have said here . If not you are left with this picture of a rather cold heartless universe . Mike
  14. When I first mentioned HIERACHY in this thread , I was thinking only in terms of the relationship I had with my Goldfish . I was not strictly thinking in terms of a Religious HIERACHY .. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy I have since looked up the Dictionary definition and it has often been used in a religious connection . I was hoping to glean some interesting information about our Human standing in the greater scheme of things , but was trying to gain that from a MIDDLE UP approach . Namely let's start with this HUMAN -FISH relationship and see what happens as we go up . For whatever reason this seems to have got onto a religious tack . Probably my fault for mentioning ANGELS. { PERHAPS THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 100 MILLION of them out there somewhere , and a GOD , and some SONS of God, makes for an interesting investigation into HIERACHY }. As explained previously I personally do not have a division between religious and non religious ( sectarian ) , everything to me is all from top to bottom one great Universe . Whatever is there is there , from top to bottom there is nothing we can do about that , it is what it is , and that is that . True , I was hoping to glean some feeling of understanding , as to what happens as we go up , and I was hoping , what was going on between me and the fish , might just give me that insite. It's now got into War , which is all we need just at this moment . However press on ! I have suffered death ( of a fish ) in the midst of all this talk, which I am only just getting over . Today Barcelona is trying to get over , many many deaths . " Who rules who " ? seems to be the issue . Perhaps this is the lot of the Universe ? Maybe there is a way to rule without war ? I rule my fish , and I am not at war with them . It's ' MAN ruling MAN ' ..... that causes the problem . We need to find a way to unscramble that bit of the HIERACHY SOMEHOW. . ? Peacefully ? PERHAPS we should all study our goldfish environment MORE ! Then Peacefully , look for the model human upward ? See if we can get any sense out of that ? You see I think our bad history in this matter is clouding the solution . If we can only see through all this past JUNK , maybe we can see a way forward ? Mike
  15. Mike Ps. Your comment :- " But none of these things suggest a hierarchy. " i will cover this , next post !
  16. Hi Moontainman, I notice a slight air of Anti Religion feelings, in your last post . Which I can understand . I grew up in the 40's, 50's, and 60's where there was this great awakening to things that seemed to have gone terribly wrong, particularly in the turn of the First World War and then into the Second World War. Religion in the main did not seem to advise people in a peaceful direction. Along came people like Bob Dylan and many others , with " come senitors and congress men , mothers and fathers ,throughout the land " " don't criticise what you don't understand " ......stand aside ... " the times they are a changing " I was well and truely swept along with all this , my parents were really alarmed. A career I had started in missile engineering , I gave up , and college. Many others , thousands , upon thousands became drop outs, streakers, hippies, and the like . The times definitely did change. Before I went to London and University, when I was 19 years old the Town of Totnes in Devon , was an ordinary Devon Town . Now 55 years later , today it sells every sort of New Age potion, crystals , books on herbal remedies and momentos for the great age of alternatives. Girls strum Guitars in the streets , flowers are sprinkled , they even roll Pancakes down the High Street every Tuesday . It's amazing . Having given up electronics university and Missiles electronics testing , In midlife my 40's/ 50's ( late 1970'sI re-established my career in the nuclear fallout shelter business , then into manufacture of computer interconnection , which led to the Internet. I went back to University ( Years 2000 .) ,did an electronics Degree in Sattelite communication , then went teaching science . Now , retired , I try to think about all this , occasionally think big thoughts , and paint all manner of things on canvas . I simpathise with your comment about religious involvement in wartime , I just live in hope there will be a time of Peace sometime on Earth , that we can ALL be proud of . I now ,do think this will be by intervention somehow from the HIERACHY above the Human level . As mankind can't seem to 'crack it ' , on his own ! Mike
  17. I appreciate all that you have said . thank you . I will rejoin the discussion . There is a problem with the subject of this discussion as:- Many of the things that have taken place in the universe, or supposedly have taken place , in the past , to do with the current World we see about us . And how it got to where we are now ! Have a problem . :- As neither , science is fully able to explain how everything got here , nor is the explanation which incorporates creatures of various sorts including a God , satisfactory to many people and many scientists particularly , as it attempts to bypass the rules of science , like prediction, evidence , formulae , maths etc . So I acknowledge the problem for both camps . A) Those that are ardent scientists almost abandon the opposite camp , in a sweeping , " well there is no evidence, no prediction , no science .... Phhaa! Waste of space ! " B) Those that come from a ( believing in the supernatural God, Angels etc , Creation ) for some reason of upbringing, experience, need whatever . Say to themselves , " heathens, heartless, poor sods they have nothing to look forward to when they die , anyway miracles are possible with our God , that scientists have no recourse to anything a bit beyond understanding or supernatural . " So it's easy to see the difficulty. However someone like me has a foot in both camps . Being utterly intreagued with both sides :- A) Science and B) God ( with others ) For some reason or other I am able to handle them both together . To me most of pedestrian science is a tool used by both sides . It's where there is a conflict I choose the God side ( maybe I am hedging my bets , but it's not for that reason . ) Why cannot GOD. And the SONS of GOD , and ANGELS of GOD not be SUPER SCIENTISTS with an advanced understanding that we just do not understand or even know about ? MIKE
  18. Well someone is stopping me debating in a Lounge environment ( by plastering me with ( -1) s. So I will have to stop , which is a shame as my points have been hard won over the years . And I enjoy the debate ! So unless whoever is determined to shut me up by using (-1) s as a means of winning an argument STOPS and returns with ( +1's) . I have no further recourse but to finish the discussion . Why cannot people win by discussion rather than by destruction . ( particularly in a Lounge environment ) Of course that is why the world has got into its present state . ( kick ass ) , rather than have an intellectual debate , and enjoy the cut and thrust of words and argument . Thanks for the discussion so far . , mike
  19. O.k. I appreciate your gentleness , in this instance . I D'ont get it though. Egyptian history and archeology is one of the strongest reputation and output in digging and archeology . YET , it is really all well buried in sand . Only the pyramids stand above the blown sand . AND YET , this civilised archeology ONLY goes back 1000's of years , not HUNDREDS of thousands of years. Surely , if the Chinese were a civilisation 250,000 years ago , by now the whole world would be of Chinese decent , not middle eastern . There is a lot of attempts to bring the odd single artefact to the forefront , and say " there you go , look at this monkey with a straitened back , it must be the start of Civilisation ! ( it probably had a bad accident and fell out of a tree badly and broke its back ) ". I still say the bulk of our history , came from Mediterranian and middle eastern roots. And I do not think I am alone in this . However , I do stand to be corrected ! Mike
  20. The trouble is , I went to the local primary schools and then grammar school, in England . And we were not taught about any Chinese history , so I can not comment from any memory of history of that group. I was however taught the local Mesopotamian history of the Middle East. I can see my history text book now .:- " FROM UR to ROME " , with history of the Mesopotamian Valley. With Cuniform writing being the first writing ( a series of wedge chisel cuts in stone ) . The Chinese history I am no expert on , except the other day I did watch a documentary about the Silk Road and I do not think it was anything like this 240,000 years you speak of . I will try and find out about the Chinese History . I am sorry to disappoint you , with my comments. It just to me does all fit together, what with MOSUL , the recent battle ground , not far from UR in the Middle East , and many of the other Historic sights of that region . ( Iran , Iraq, Seria , Isreal , Arabia ) . BUT , what if I am right ? That it did all start off in a civilisation way , near the Caspian Sea , Mediterranian sea, Messipotanian, Arabian region of the World . Many of the artefacts are still there. As I was taught back in the 1950's ., in school ? Mike
  21. I am getting a bit over awed, by the numbers in the HIERACHY above humans . I had no idea that at least 100,000,000 ( 100 million ) ANGELS are in attendance around the EARTHS immediately future. (I was pointed to The Bible REVELATION chap 5 verse 11. ) So it would appear the whole of the next HIERACHY UP contains ONE BEING ( GOD) with a very very complex brain , capable of understanding and initiating the start of matter. ( the UNIVERSE ) Once this had expanded to a manageable size , The region of ITS ( GODS) domain was furnished with at least 100,000,000 overseeing beings called Angels ( that later got further divisions , Arc Angels, Sons of God ) . So rather than there being " absolutely nothing " constituting , a higher HIERACHY than mankind , there appears to be one ' heck of an overseeing organisation , that would make anything we have here on earth ' look like peanuts ' . We need to get our act together PDQ, ... METHINKS ps . We need to remember the Jewish nation became the caretakers of many of the Documents containing information about the early start of history of the human race , as well as its continuence until the Arrival of Jesus Christ, ( one of these Angelic SONS OF God , mentioned above ). And Hence the gathering together of more information , now found in the ' New Testament ' including REVELATION ( Quoted above about 100,000,000 Angels .) So we seem to be gathering quite a lot of Historical evidence , for this proposed HIERACHY, that I proposed. Rather than a big ' blank ' we seem to have unearthed quite a lot of evidence and character for the Human HIERACHY , integrated in human history across thousands of Years . As originally proposed. So somehow the HIERACHY has appeared at two levels , as Caretakers in the regions above . And as recipients in the regions below . ( has echoes of me above out of the water , as caretaker and my fish , below , Fish in the water as recipients of my care ) ! Now if that is not ' EVIDENCE ' , I do not know what is ? Well woven into human history over the last 6000 years ! Mike
  22. May be the whole ' schaboodle ' is originated, maintained , and altered by God! Maybe ? Mike
  23. Well , I am not so sure you are right about that . Scientists up through the ages have often dismissed proposals offered in advance that have later come to the for . ( in advance ) . Quantum ideas, dark matter , dark energy , complexity , Mandelbrot sets, automata, bottom up/ top down , time , etc mike
  24. Hang on a minute ! That is all a bit of a hasty and sweeping comment about the whole subject, ( both of science , and of a tentative shot at what ' may ' just be another addition to current science understanding , that has not yet been grasped or even entertained by a large section of the science community ) . Namely , that there is .another , rather large , indeed massive , extra to science , that has a very variable , flexible , unpredictable aspect to the Universe and its function and origin , that as of yet , in not even being seriously considered or in any way understood . POSSIBLY ! Even Einstein broached this subject with his (" God does not play dice ") Mike
  25. The answer is in the 'Issue ' of what is the structure of the whole thing , from the beginning , and how did that come about .? I have a feeling that the region around the time of the first Higgs particle , it's duplication up to a trillion trillion Higgs particles , in size . Still less than a marble in dimension. Any associated thought-like patterns that might have existed amid this ' timeless ' ball of sub material formation. THEN ( as a precursor thought/plan) " {{{ The potential for a 'universe to come ' , the ensuing intelligence that this 'brain like entity ' now had at its disposal ? To imagine and pre- program a HEIRACHY Ranging from silent matter in the form of elements AT THE LOWEST HIERACHY, to life at a microbe scale , to animals and fish , ( the HIERACHY that I have discussed, to ultimately Humans ( HUMAN HIERACHY with large brains, to millions of universe overseers HIERACHY of Angels , to an overall GOD . }}} " THEN , AFTER that initial inflationary period . The birth of our universe some 13.5 billion years ago. To spread expanding into, what to where we find ouselves today . mike
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