naitche

1 hour ago, Genady said:

What is the nature of our existence?

Assuming that our means humans', our existence has physical, chemical, biological, and social natures.

 

Yes. But those are  objectively independent. Their interactions are not.

The values they provide to our existence, are subject to it.

Similar to nature or nurture, environment and organism. 

Theres no nurture without nature, or organism without environment.

Its a two part equation to arrive at a whole.

The objective is always an objective, while its has the support to be one.

Only the value(s) it provides, are subjective. In application.

On 8/30/2023 at 1:24 PM, iNow said:

I’m not aware of any studies confirming this, but anecdotal feedback strongly suggests those latter redundancies seem to reduce for approximately 18 years after successful parturition. 

This will still allow a tyranny of the majority to win out, for (while it’s not always zero sum) sometimes benefit to one party must come at the expense of another. 

I liked how swansont said this recently: There is no equality in the choice of what to have for dinner if 3 of those voting are wolves and 1 is a sheep.

Systems must be in place to minimize this and agreements between parties require governance for enforcement.  

Agreed. Structures are required to support any purpose. If those we have now are unsuited, we would have the constitution to build more effective, to better serve that purpose.  It does provide a standard of expectation common to elected officials, their constituents, and those they interact with.

Its sets up a robust and endlessly adaptive constituency empowered to combat those tyrannies, in service to the stated objective.

If you doubt the power of constitution, just look at Americas right to bear arms, and the difficulties in ammending or alteration.

There is no consistency in the Human Objective as it is, with none agreed on

Or pedigree breeders fixation on 'purity' of a pedigree.

On 8/30/2023 at 9:16 PM, Genady said:

Yes, perhaps. But also, how we define 'relativity', 'relationship', and 'objective' in this context.

Yes. There needs to be recognition across context, inclusive of all existence.

On 8/30/2023 at 11:56 PM, dimreepr said:

what-is-the-nature-of-our-existence?

"Perhaps the disconnect may be occurring through how we define 'value' in this context?"

Isn't being alive value enough in this contex?

Thats a question for the op.

But o.k, lets try that, and say that existence is the 1st value. Objectively. All by its self. Subtracted from any 'other value'. Its a subtraction to a single value, out of many possibilities for recognition.

What is its application, without reference to any other  value applicable to its being?

Application is always relative, and subject to its relativity/relationship.

The objective is always subtractive /objective to any 'other' value.

Its application, or value, is subjective.

Seems to me we could be tackling many of humanities problems much more effectively by ditching the idea of one world governance, or leadership dependency, in favor of a Human Objective, or manifesto.

Simply and unambiguously stated; To strive for mutual benefit and reciprocity to our subjective realities, existence, and environments.

To accept individual responsibility, and enhance the abilities of response collectively, through a personal investment in the Human objective, and recognition of our personal/individual roles in its manifestation.

One world governance can't work. It can't effectively represent the diversity of its subject, to be universally supported or supporting.

Its a false equation. There is no singularity to the objective. It can't be realized except by a process of eliminating subject values

On 8/20/2023 at 8:50 AM, studiot said:

 

Your reply may be relevant to many things, especially since they are interlinked.

However I am sorry to say that I still am no wiser as to what you are saying.

 

Pewrhaps it would help if I observed (as I have dome several times in the past)  that there is nothing you can say in Mathematics that cannot be said in plain English, the converse is not true since there are many things you can say (express) in English that cannot be said mathematically.

 

Is this what you are alluding to ?

More that the role and universality of language assumes a much greater depth and simplicity at the same time, with proper recognition the Objectives and subjective. 

On 8/29/2023 at 12:43 AM, Genady said:

Can you clarify your statements with an example? If you don't mind, please describe the Pythagoras theorem in your terminology.

No, I can't. As stated I'm very far from being a mathematician. It should not be essential to the purpose regardless. It may or may not complicate my attempts at explanation. Its basic language of subjective to objective informs the language we commonly use. 

Perhaps the disconnect may be occurring through how we define 'value' in this context?

I would say through relativity. Any objective considered in relationship is a value application.

All relationships are value expressions,

Mathematics and spoken/written language are only two ways of expressing value.

Training animals is communication, expression of values, and their recognition. The interplays of environment on objects and organisms are value expressions. All subjective.

The effects of biological selection and evolution are value expressions, as is our Human condition. 

Seems to me people are over thinking this. 

Its not complicated. Mathematics reduced to its most base principle. Values and their properties are provided, to arrive at a given sum.

The subjective values provide the the Objective sum. It amounts to nothing  without those. Is a measure of nothing. 

If values that contribute to the sum are excluded, The Objective is not realized. 

If values not included in the sum are applied, The Objective is not realized.

The Subjective directs the realization of The Objective. 

 Inclusive of all contributing values. Its subject properties. Those recognized in service to the same Objective. 

Subjective is inclusive and relative.

Exclusive of values serving unrelated Objectives. Those not recognized to serve the Objective in common.

The Objective is reductive and exclusive. Of unrelated values.

The Subjective provides direction.

The Objective is the expression of the state served by that direction. The structure achieved.

Realization is dependent on recognition of the order, and which is applicable to a given situation.

I came to this from a completely different direction and  over a long period. It appears to work, as far as I am aware with out contradicting any known laws of physics.

I believe there is a cognitive dissonance that complicates its recognition, I think most likely the role of conscious thought, and the role it plays in humanities expressions.

ie, the idea that we will have a better expression of Humanity if we refuse recognition and direction of its more unsavory parts, rather than investing in our common objective to minimize the unsavory affects.

Thank you.

My reply is relevant to the idea Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things, and also is manifestation real?

Mathematics is a duality, that English accounts for in the objective and subjective.

A value given, yes. but it must also 'register' . It must register to equal its reality. It is relative.

On 8/18/2023 at 9:36 PM, studiot said:

 

Thank you for replying.

You have certainly gone well beyond the boundaries of my native English as I certainly didn't understand what you mean, except that you think English is up to the job of expressing whatever it is you want to express.

So please explain further.

I'm called away a few days, and won't be able to reply till I return.

Too late to edit. should read nothing can equal its definition.

Yep. Knowledge and understanding of the structure. That which instructs any definition to be had.

As a whole. Discrediting its parts as un-equal to the existence is a double negative, and will lead you to nothing. 

Its how evolution, and biology work, this selection based on diversity of values, and the objectives they serve. when state dictates values, they are entropic. 

The structure is equal to the state, or nothing is equal to its definition.

57 minutes ago, Genady said:

Model organism - Wikipedia:

 

Presumming the model is equal to the workings. 

Model. from Mode see modal.

On 8/14/2023 at 1:04 PM, Genady said:

I actually try to argue that existence of mathematical objects is a model for existence of all objects.

Then how should I have interpreted this?

On 8/13/2023 at 8:44 PM, Genady said:

 

We are discussing the mathematical context here.

And the presumption has been that the nature of existence is mathematics.

On 8/14/2023 at 12:29 AM, Steve81 said:

After careful consideration, I have concluded based on inter-related biological/psychological factors that the "meaning/nature" of human life is to help others to the best of our abilities, and achieve happiness. 

Develop response abilities in recognition of existence and our contribution to its manifestations.

On 8/14/2023 at 12:50 AM, Genady said:

I think it is supported by facts. Here is a fact of existence, for example:

For every number, a prime number exists which is greater than that number.

A mere property of existence, which you say is irrelevant. As is your own experience and understanding as a mere property of existence.

On 8/14/2023 at 7:42 AM, studiot said:

I really think this discussion is pushing against the boundaries of language here.

 

I believe the language is equal to the objective, and the presumptions of its properties is misplaced. It is based on both subjective and the objective values- Both the State and direction of existence.

On 8/14/2023 at 1:04 PM, Genady said:

I actually try to argue that existence of mathematical objects is a model for existence of all objects.

Then I think you must accept its most basic premises.

On 8/16/2023 at 10:41 AM, Genady said:

It is not without value. It is without fixed value. It allows for any value to be assigned.

No. It has none.  It is not realized until the value is assumed into its being.

Science is not realized with out recognition of the  properties we summate equal to an objective/existence. Its state, and the content to realize it.

What state of existence are you looking for, if your belief is that  its properties are irrelevant?

15 minutes ago, Genady said:

No, The sum of anything.

Without  the value of property, theres isn't anything to summate.  It can't be realized. 

15 minutes ago, Genady said:

 

I have never asked this. I've asked,

 

 

My answer remains the same.

On 8/14/2023 at 5:55 AM, Genady said:

I think it is an electron, regardless.

What is the basis for its realization?

As a measure of Nothing. Its not evidenced.

Mathematics does not 'work' with out the values given. It is based on those. Subjective to inform objective.

If '5'  exists independently of the values brought to it, its irrelevant. The sum of nothing. No purpose, direction or potential.

You asked what would be the interactive to mathematics. Value to the sum, or the summation of nothing. It expresses nothing. 

3 hours ago, Genady said:

Exactly!

Yes. Its the measure. Of a value. In the case of your yard stick, the value is distance.

There must be a value given. Is the electron still an electron with out its property value to Be? Its the objective and subjective at once. One part to state, or constitution, the other to direction. The value must be provided 1st, to inform the state 

Not much point in the topic if your belief is that existence Is. Unsupported.

Then why do you believe there is such a thing as existence?

In what context?

If there is no 1.2.3.or 4,  where is the foundation to build or realize  5?

15 hours ago, Genady said:

Defined and realized are two different things. I am talking about realization, not about definition.

15 hours ago, Genady said:

 

My question was about mathematics. Things do not have measurable properties there.

The numbers and symbols are representative of property and values, brought to support the objective. The Mathematic objective, a measure of property. Is 5 not measurable? Sorry, confused.

15 hours ago, Genady said:

 

Let's take an example, the sum 2+3=5. It has part in your existence, it has no property to measure, it is absolute, sustainable, viable. It exists everywhere.

In your equation,5 is. So are 1.2.and 3, objectively. 

Yes. in isolation. But none are realized with out 1, and 2 can only be realized relative to 1. I would say one might exist in isolation, but exist relative to what? The expression of a singular value, but can it be  its  value if it accrues to nothing?

The subjective realizes the objective. The other way around can only take you back to nothing. 

I would surmise Relativity seems the basis or foundation of, the realization of existence.

The establishment of complimentary relationship. 

22 hours ago, Genady said:

Any sum? Could you give an example?

Looks that way from where I sit. So theoretically, any sum should do.

I'm far from a mathematician but I can't see how an existence can be objectively defined, or realized, with out the values brought by its subject property. If it has no measurable property, does it exist?  Maybe it can. Maybe we just don't yet have its measure.

But it has no part in my  existence with out some  measure of its property. Its not relative. And I would think not sustainable? Viable? without  relativity. How does a thing exist without relativity? Where?

10 hours ago, Genady said:

Hmmm... What would be the "interactions" in mathematics? 

The subjective values of a sum in-form the Objective.

The value of any sum is only provided by the properties recognized in its context

Wouldn't the nature of existence be mathematical, if mathematical physics governs its expression?

I like to place a jar over them , then slide a piece of cardboard under.

About the same time I called my dog in to find her bloody. Checked the yard to find this. If squeamish, don't look. Keeping an eye on her, but this her her 3rd now. This is about 3 1/2 foot. Toxic and had taken up residence outside my back door.

I would have preferred to remove it safely to another location, they are not particularly aggressive, but too easy to step on in the dark or if you haven't got your wits about you.

I have had dogs that show only curiosity with no snake instincts. Those that have it most often react the same as this dog, grab and shake the cr*p out of it. Had one only who would run the other way. but even she came back to pull one off the old dog who tried to kill it but was too slow in his reactions so that it had hold of him. She grabbed it and pulled it away, then ran again.

Seems to me nurture often plays a large role in fear of spiders and snakes, but there is often an instinct to view either a threat too. 

On 4/27/2023 at 10:52 AM, Genady said:

A connection between your fear to enter that house and that guy electrocuting himself some days later seems quite incidental.

Granted. Except the anecdote wasn't provided as evidence of precognition.

On 4/27/2023 at 9:46 AM, naitche said:

 

 

Of the instances I put in the category of weird /spooky, there is either unexplained physical evidence, or an inescapable certainty with out evidence. Because those instances are always born out, and there is an intensity to the feeling that brings a nervous agitation or energy  not usual to my self.

It was used to describe a measurable physiological state, to conditions unsupported by other senses or in conflict with logical reality.  Experienced despite  recognition and acceptance of the contradictory facts available.

The physiological experience varies in context and can be positive just as easily.

. 

33 minutes ago, mistermack said:

I once dreamed that I'd killed someone, and hid the body in a nearby hedge. When I woke up, I must have stayed in a half-asleep state, because I spent the whole morning deeply depressed, totally convinced that the body would soon be discovered, and I would spend the rest of my life in prison. I started debating with myself whether I should move the body, and the risks involved, and I was frustrated that I couldn't exactly remember the details of where I left it. I was confused, wondering how it could be that I couldn't remember, and I sat down and it dawned on me out of the fog that my brain was obviously in, that it had been a dream.

The relief that flooded over me was unbelievable, it was like I'd turned my life around in an instant.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only one that has had a dream carry on into waking like that. For me, it was just the once in a lifetime, but for some, it's probably much more severe and frequent. You can dream literally anything, and some of the most convincing UFO stories might well be dreams that people had, that somehow got confused with waking reality. 

I was able to work out what happened, but sometimes for some people, that might not be possible. 

Thats happened to me once. I dreamed of a war breaking out between countries. I saw the report on the news. I went through half the day believing it true until friends popped in and no one even even mentioned it. I'm glad I realized before I did!

9 hours ago, zapatos said:

This one sounds different than the situations described by others, in that yours seems like it can be subject to scientific scrutiny. Would make for an interesting published scientific article if demonstrated by science to be true.

These experiences started when I was 11 and were very much more pronounced, impossible to hide  from those close to me. Much less as I aged. Life style likely accounts for a lot there. I did contact the only paranormal researcher I could find in Australia with a view to participating, but after asking a few questions decided the head of that was very biased to non scientific theories and no help to me, nor I to him. I never left my name or gave personal information. Long ago now. I may have watched too many movies, or  just become more cynical, but submitting myself as a guinea pig these days isn't going to happen.

3 hours ago, Genady said:

When my father was ill and his condition deteriorating, I said to my wife one day, "He will die on [my daughter]'s birthday." Several days later, in the morning of that exact day, he did. 

I always thought of this experience as a combination of extrapolation and coincidence.

I have those instances too. I can and do brush those off, same as you did. Maybe they could be included too, but if there is  doubt its best to attribute it to coincidence or extrapolation. It would be too easy to see connections where there are none and loose sight of reality. Some thing I witness often in others who have experienced weird things. The dream of my friend I also wrote off, and another involving my Grand fathers death by drowning till they confirmed. I only count what is physically evidenced, or can't be easily explained otherwise. 

Of the instances I put in the category of weird /spooky, there is either unexplained physical evidence, or an inescapable certainty with out evidence. Because those instances are always born out, and there is an intensity to the feeling that brings a nervous agitation or energy  not usual to my self.

eg. a surprise visit to a friend in my late teens. I found him at the gate to his house as I approached but as he did an intense fear over took me. He invited me in, saying his parents were getting Married that afternoon and prepping. I said not a good time, I'd come back another. He insisted I come in and they would happy to see me. I did not want to enter the gate, let alone the house. Trying to find an explanation for my fear, all I could think was there was going to be an explosion. The house was all electric and I told myself it was ridiculous and stupid, just go in. I did, but was so over come with fear I couldn't excuse myself  fast enough and walked away berating myself  an idiot for how I must have acted, asking myself where I could expect a damn explosion of all things. My friends father died within days, driving a forklift into power lines.

I had no liking for the man as an abusive father and suspected Pedophile (confirmed by one of his daughters years later)

I had no idea what was happening, why, or what I expected other than  EXPLOSION!! It isn't nice.