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Posts posted by naitche

  1. 20 hours ago, naitche said:

    Only relationship can provide the balance. The subjective.

    It leads the way. Form/state follows function/direction

    Identification is objective/reductive.  Any measure or value is subjective. Supports the purpose.

    Subjective values can't be applied objectively, with out creating a double negative. A negative bias.

    Objective values can be applied to the subjective, but only in service to the whole of reality. Equal in consideration.  To provide equal structure.

    Realities equal as one, otherwise, Naught.


    Ugh. My poor wording again. 

    Value can only go one way, to direction. 

    Application of the objective, to an objective, is the double negative. The value is assumed into the negative, and has become a 'value' since it can only be applied that way, subjectively.

    Objectives applied subjectively direct structure. Structure which will only support the reality assumed in/by? its implementation.

    Seems to underpin biological and evolutionary process of recognition and response., and to work in the social sciences, explaining the use or purpose of belief or bias to organic structure.





  2. Only relationship can provide the balance. The subjective.

    It leads the way. Form/state follows function/direction

    Identification is objective/reductive.  Any measure or value is subjective. Supports the purpose.

    Subjective values can't be applied objectively, with out creating a double negative. A negative bias.

    Objective values can be applied to the subjective, but only in service to the whole of reality. Equal in consideration.  To provide equal structure.

    Realities equal as one, otherwise, Naught.


  3. My best hypothesis atm  is that objective and subjective realities are equal, as One.

    If Objective reality is the state of being,  with out relationship.

    and subjective, in relationship.

    Where a state of being is decided  or final, its in decline. Nothing is the only enduring statehood.

    Its measure must be evidenced.

    Its equal. The balance between something and nothing is its measure.

    Identity/Identification is always objective. Without relation to. Defined from the  relationships/environment that assign it value.

    So any measure/value is attributed subjectively, to the relationship between its measure, and its being.


  4. 9 hours ago, Moontanman said:

    While acknowledge my experience in this is highly limited, I've known only one transgendered Male/Female, he/she was... trying to put this delicately, well I'll describe her, about 6'6, muscular, large breasts, huge feet and hands, almost a walking circus act. She went to our church I felt a lot of sympathy towards her, I had extensive talks with her and found out the transition had pretty much brought her life to a halt, she lost her kids to her ex-wife, lost her job because she couldn't stand the hostility from her co workers. Her life was a mess, a horrific mess. I hope it got better as time went on but I have my doubts, she left town for a job and I never saw her again. This was a horror story by any ones measure. 

    This thread make me wonder if she would have been better off if the transition had started before or around puberty. One thing is for sure, the transition didn't affect her manliness and I have known very tall women before but she was a fish out of water for sure.  

    Sad to hear of such a horrific result. 

    I good friend I've lost touch with transitioned about 50 years ago, also from a large man, but much better result. An amazon of a woman, who was a game show hostess for a while and married to the host at one time.

    She had a dispute over a horse once, resulting in her sitting on the porch with a shotgun waiting for the other guy to show up. 😄 

  5. On 5/27/2022 at 2:03 AM, Peterkin said:

    Why would you think that? Is there a historical basis for this belief? What is the reason women chose this option when/if they had other options?

    I'm not saying it's wrong; just that it's contrary to anecdotal testimony I've heard*. It also sounds vaguely like the seperate-but-equal arguments for racial segregation - the result was separation but no equality.     

    *Anecdote very far from top elite professional world-class competition, though international. A young friend, who was eight years old at that pre-Covid time, was temporarily relocated to France with her parents. She loves hockey. They do have a Moustiques  (under 9) league, but there were not enough girls in the school district to make up a team and they wouldn't even let her try out for one of the boys' teams. So, tough. She missed two years of development, at a critical age, in the sport at which she excels. Because.... Vive la differance! 

    Women have pushed for inclusion in sports such as equestrian etc. Those sports where men and women compete together are not under contention for transgender inclusion afaik, and I have not noticed anywhere women are trying to combine classes for men and women in the sports still segregated.(at least in western countries) seems they are content with  segregation in those sports and the option was chosen in recognition of  womens disadvantage otherwise. That competition in those sports would not be equal.

    There  also seems little interest for trans men to compete as men in those same sports. In recognition of the disadvantage they would have ?

    The sporting arena is increased. 'Classes" are added.


    So I guess it is equal but separate, the difference being that this separation allows  equal participation in a single, given space. ie the sporting arena which already consists of separate but equal  sports. Its just another sport to increase  that space. Equal footing in a given space/arena.

    Where racial segregation is a separation of the space itself.  Each space is lessened.

    It was never done in recognition of equality. The equal but separate was a lie. Division of a single space based on the differences of the halves, can not be equal.

    Sorry for your niece missing out on valuable grounding in her chosen sport. I doubt there is any reason at that age and older for segregation. 



    On 5/27/2022 at 2:23 AM, CharonY said:

    Yes obviously the athletes should be part of the conversation, no doubt about that. That does include transgender athletes. And rather unfortunately quite a few of the laws and rulings do not include consultations with said athletes which, as you said, is patronizing. Note that discussions on this board are purely speculative as AFAIK no one here has ruling power for any sports. It should also add that there is also the issue that sometimes a women's league is desired as women have less support in certain sports due to certain performance assumptions (which we discussed in context of jockeys).


    That is not what was proposed, from what I can see.

    I think that (or some variation of it) seems to be  what most advocating to integrate transgender athletes are basically proposing. I should add that the differences should not be sexual, but performance traits relevant for a given sports that are likely to be sex-associated. 

    It sounds like they are proposing doing away with the segregation altogether. I am not. Just adding open classes. Not where advantage or disadvantage is measured in selection(any more than already done), but where the sports are changed or adjusted so that sexual advantage or disadvantage are nullified as far as possible. It might increase overall interest in sports from both a spectators or participants perspective. I would find that more interesting and believe over time, a win in open would be seen as more prestigious.

    Enable an evolution, instead of imposing states. Imposition isn't done in recognition of equality, and is more likely to meet with an equal and opposite force.

  6. I would think the majority ( maybe not all)  of sports still segregated by sex are segregated by choice of the women taking part, for a reason. 

    Those women should be the ones to decide if the reasons for segregation are compromised by  the inclusion of trans women. Kind of patronizing for others to decide on their behalf.

    I  see the solution being proposed as unworkable. It complicates qualification,  making it harder for everyone and seems too much like matching every one up perfectly and throwing a dice. It becomes chance, not skill/strength/endurance etc. A prize for every one, eventually. Not much for the spectator in that. Sport is lessened.

    It would make much more sense, I think, to create open classes in those sports where the game/rules are adjusted to compensate for measurable sexual differences. Trans men would have an arena option too.

    The sports expand and grow from there as they will, if every one who believes in equal participation, does.

    My Trans niece said very recently, that  "of course I would have an unfair  physical advantage over women". She is about 5"4 and  'petite' as any of the earlier posted pictures tried to convey. Pretty sure she meant women of comparable physique.


  7. I wouldn't either.  I was trying to say that a person could think a lot of things 'paranormal' if they haven't earned the back ground to figure it out. I  don't think we are anywhere near finished figuring things out.

  8. Sure. I don't believe in ghosts or Goblins. I repeat, I have never experienced visual or auditory phenomena  that could not be explained by the science we know.

    A friend once organized a week end in a house touted as the most Haunted in Australia. For Halloween. The only thing remotely interesting I witnessed was the fear of the patrons, of me. I asked my friend was it my imagination, or was the proprietor aiming all his dialog at me, and staring. Several people who were also there for the weekend over heard and confirmed. I still don't know what that was about, but all I had to do the whole weekend was clear my throat and I would get the most wide eyed stare and just about a step back. I agree people are easily gulled, especially once their minds are already made up. So I try to assume nothing. Either way.

    Others reinforced  what I was experiencing.  If all those people saw was a photo, or caught only as brief a moment as that, It could have any number of easier explanations. It would indicate nothing, except a wide eyed stare with no context that could have been photo-shopped.  I don't see how that discounts what did happen. 

    I don't call that paranormal either. Just some thing I have no logical explanation for. It happens.

    If others choose to call such things paranormal, then I guess you could say thats how people understand  unexplained things and I will use that word for their understanding. But I don't believe in magic, or that things happen with out cause, even if we don't understand what that is.

    If a person goes fishing and picks up a pack of dogs, one by one on their walk who spend the day with said person only to peel off in the same manner on the way home, some these days might think that creepy strange. Maybe paranormal. They would just be missing information unlearned.

  9. Pretty much how I see it.

    As for the things I have experienced, they fall under the shit happens that we are not sure why. Until we know other wise, I will assume there is an explanation but the science hasn't caught up enough yet to provide one.

  10. 8 hours ago, StringJunky said:

    Auditory pareidolia. Being pretty deaf, I experience it several times a day, it's just my brain trying to deal with a poor signal in my case.

    As stated, the first thing I try is to find sensible explanations. I have had similar experiences as those mentioned here of auditory or visual phenomena.

    I have always been able to find those explanations. I have not claimed to see or hear things. I don't.

    6 hours ago, Peterkin said:

      the energy requirement is prohibitive. Some form of ESP, why not?


    I am pretty sure that energy plays a part and is some how available, possibly for all forms of its manifestation.

    If you can believe it, the Russian experiments on remote viewing made much of Theta waves.

    5 hours ago, Phi for All said:


    I don't blame people for their skepticism. I am still a big skeptic hearing others stories, because I've seen so many who choose to allow themselves to be mislead. They want to believe., Or have one unexplainable incident (to them) and start looking for meaning in every coincidence or fluke.

    By the same token, who am I to tell some one else they are mislead or did not experience what they believe they have.

    I think the charlatans are far more more likely to gain advantage from their deceptions than any genuine cases, who it seems don't talk about it.

    My experience is there is no practical advantage. To make use of any 'ability' its got to be an ability. I don't understand what is happening so have no control over what does. Those experiencing it 2nd hand generally are 1st creeped out, then normalize it with what ever explanation they find. Very easy when what you are experiencing is not shared. 

    That does not favor an evolutionary advantage, nor does our natural skepticism. If a woman told you she often predicted peoples deaths, or could smell disease, or things fly off shelves in her presence I don't see many people here who would be likely to see her as a good mating prospect-quite the opposite.

  11. 9 hours ago, Moontanman said:

    When I was a kid dogs would follow me when I went fishing. I would set out with my fishing pole and walk a few miles to the river, along the way I would always pick up an entourage of dogs from houses along the way. They would sit with me while I fished, wrestle with each other and chase rabbits. When I went home the dogs would cut out of the "pack" as I passed the houses where they lived. My grand father was the same way, dogs just seemed to like him and me as well. I have no idea why, some of the dogs were big others were small, mostly hounds but a few others as well. 

    I spent much of my adult life raising basset hounds as pets, weird dogs for sure. Many people think they are dumb... not true they just don't care to please like many dogs do. They are very self centered and distant unless they want something. I had some bassets that were almost too lazy to live, others that were active and aggressive. All of them adhered to the pack mentality, individually they were shy and barked incessantly at anything strange. In a group they became almost of one mind and few other dogs would want to approach them, a ring of barking bassets circling around you is an impressive and frightening thing.  When I walked them they would always walk around me and stay between me and any other animal or person who approached. their behavior in a group and individually was like night and day. 

    As individuals they were easily frightened, mostly with a couple of notable exceptions, but as a pack they were a force to be reckoned with.    

    Such a unique relationship experienced this way. They can be such cruisy companions even in large groups, centered 'round a figure of trust and respect. Take that sound center out though, and the pack is volatile as a mob. Very similar social structures as a true companion species in many ways.

    We forget our manners and communication skills with each other, with lessened exposure. 

    As an aside, service dog seems to mean military other places, so maybe I should have described the dogs in my previous post as  ....Not therapy dogs, but with  some of the same capabilities to serve more generally useful roles as well.

  12. 8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

    That's more or less my take. Something happens, but we don't know what caused it or how to interpret it. Some people claim to know all about the supernatural, the paranormal, the unexplained - but they're unconvincing, their motives suspect.

    With  easy profit from the gullible as their earnings.

    8 hours ago, Peterkin said:


    Others claim absolute certainty regarding the scientific psychological causes.  I have a problem with that, because I'm quite sure there is still a great deal that nobody knows about how brains and minds work; so, to me this certainty is as suspect as the other: though it may not have sinister motives, scientific presumption has had some pretty bad outcomes.

    Yes. And some times these explanations just don't work, as you mentioned earlier with physical phenomena experienced by multiple people.

    8 hours ago, Peterkin said:

    So, mostly, people just don't talk about it. I suppose that's okay; nothing much will be changed by these isolated subjective experiences. How well the people who experience them fare depends - or seems to depend - on how much confidence they have in their own judgment.   

    I think it must lead to delusion with sad consequences for any of us,  loosing  confidence to assess and judge our own reality..

  13. On 2/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, Peterkin said:


    do you formulate a rational explanation?

    First thing I try.

    On 2/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, Peterkin said:

    Do you ignore it?

    More often impossible, but some times I must.

    On 2/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, Peterkin said:

    Do you look up research on such occurrences?

    I used to, little available of any use. Only served to show me nobody knew and if they did, we all would. I did look into joining Paranormal research, but after speaking with the guy running it, I ran another way. E

    How  the same thing is experienced between people varies so much I think visual or auditory effects could be our own additions to process information, A  self defense mechanism to accept that something happened.

    On 2/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, Peterkin said:

    Do you talk to somebody about it?

    Not usually. Some times. Few I would feel comfortable talking with about such things and fewer I feel who can with out going all weird on me and 'Spiritual" I don't mean to sound derogatory, but I think most  follow that path implicitly, seems too much like faith.

    On 2/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, Peterkin said:

    Do you accept it as paranormal?  

    No, except as a loose classification of as yet unexplained phenomena.

    Some thing enables them.

  14. Yes owners are a big part of the problem, but don't underestimate the stupidity of some encountering dogs, and the effects of unfamiliarity with them.

    Dogs in the past were often much more a part of society that even non- owners were likely to encounter free roaming daily so that an understanding of behavior on both the dogs part and their communities was just another part of social proficiency.

    Thats changed enormously  in most Western communities, to varying degrees. Dogs are generally less familiar with people and situations out side their family circle and territory, and I would say a majority of people are no longer able to 'read' a dog and its state of mind effectively to avoid putting themselves into a bad situation.

    Its  easier for temperamental unsoundness to be masked from those making breeding selections, and in Pedigree dogs at least, the 'standard' is more often the over riding selection criteria before any other trait can even be considered as it is.

    I've seen some pretty dangerous and dumb behavior from people, and I believe its mostly a case of being unfamiliar with the species. As owner/breeder of personal protection and service dogs though, I do understand how easy it is to put all the responsibility on owners  when I hear repeatedly the old BS about not letting any one else pat or interact with the dog or it won't do its job when extensive socialization is what allows it to do the job most effectively and safely.

    A personal protection dog is useless if it has to spend most of its life confined in the back yard or a pen and is beyond reach when needed.


  15. 20 minutes ago, Michael McMahon said:


    An advantage of catching them is that you get to momentarily admire them before throwing them away. As you can see my usual tactic is to get a bottle or cavity of some kind and then scrape some thin cardboard or paper under it to close it off. I might touch the plastic directly beneath them in order to slowly reduce my fear of them. I didn't touch that little one directly because I'm actually in Turkey right now where some of them can leap!



    Yes, thats my preferred method. Or simply place the jar on one side, the lid on the other, and bring the two together for spiders on the web. There was a large(orb?) spider whos web tangled in my hair this morning before I noticed. I carefully removed it out into the lemon tree popular with its species. He missed the branch and fell to the chickens.

    By leaving them alone, I meant cause them no harm. Not always possible once they've strayed into enemy territory.

    I was tempted to bring a beautiful Barking Gecko juvenile home to photograph yesterday, but decided the trip in my warm hands on a cold day, and a sudden release back into the cold might cause too much shock to such a tiny thing. I need to carry the means to photograph every time I step out. I've missed too many great opportunities.

  16. Healthy respect, no fear of crawlies or snakes here though the I have been bitten by scorpions and centipedes, woke to a very large huntsman covering my eye that I removed in the dark and had numerous snakes in the house and gardens. My dog killed one in her kennel just last week.( RBB) 

    The most common snakes here are all venomous. Plenty of Eastern Browns, Red Belly Blacks and Bandy Bandy and over the years there have been losses of horses to them.

    In other animals, the reactions vary between individuals. Seems they have 'the instinct' or they don't ( to see a threat) Dogs that do, often pull their lips back while attacking as though the taste is also repulsive. This for both spiders and snakes, though I've had dogs that will stomp a spider instead.

    Insects are generally tossed into the air with each nip in a continuous motion, snakes shaken violently.

    Plenty of Funnel web spiders too. generally these are not toxic to canines and my terrier will jump on them if he finds them. Much appreciated when they are near where the kids play.

    We prefer to let them be, but the warnings have been handy, especially in the dark/ using the bath room! 

  17. On 10/20/2021 at 6:52 PM, Intoscience said:

     Purposes can be assigned and not necessarily intrinsic to existence.

    What if the purpose is to express your existence,  as you believe Humanity should?


  18. Humanity has a common language that directs us through values expressed. Thats biological. 

    Objective value is to state.

    Subjective to Direction.

    If those 2 values are entangled, direction is to achievement and maintenance of state, before any other value can be recognized.

    By mechanism of subtraction,  of environment.

    Reduced to the desired state.

    A better understanding of what is 'environment' might make this more clear, and the workings self evident.


    Humanity is equal to education.

    Education is not equal to Humanity.

    Thats the problem we should be addressing.

  19. On 12/26/2021 at 11:04 AM, MSC said:


    Are you perchance a ghost? Because almost all of what you were saying, sounded like woo. It didn't really make much sense and was kind of hard to read because it sounds like you're trying to cultivate mystique and making fallacious appeals to science in an attempt to strengthen whatever it is you're trying to claim. 

    Or you are missing the  dimension of a biological space in the way I use language.

    We should know its there, to link the social sciences to biological law and physics.

    On 12/26/2021 at 11:04 AM, MSC said:


    Neurological, Genetic, Cultural and biological diversity are in no ways "subjective".

    Yes they are. They subject to environment. The only value of an object/objective is in its being, or statehood.

    The direction given to your object/objective is all subject to its existence or being. Its state is determined by that direction.

    When you  measure that being/state by any other value, That value is subject to the state its applied to.

    Philosophy says all value is subjective. Measurement is subjective. 

    On 12/26/2021 at 11:04 AM, MSC said:

    It sounds to me like you're trying to abstract away from simply saying "I don't see colour or differences in peoples." Which I think is just you lying to yourself about having subconscious biases, because admitting you have them, would make you seem, in your eye's at least, less good or intelligent. 

    But I do see color and diversity, everywhere. I think you read things into what I say because it conflicts with your assumed reality- where value lies in objective states, rather than direction  subjectively provided.

    On 12/26/2021 at 11:04 AM, MSC said:

    You misunderstood completely when I said;

    Assume everything or assume nothing on a case by case basis. Meaning, upon examination of the objective context, which includes the individuals involved subjective beliefs, as it will factor into what is happening, in a given situation deduce whether or not discrimination is going on, and the type and degree of it. It's simpler but probably more appropriate meaning; consider all sides, empathise with and understand how and why different people may view the same situation differently. Give yourself the fullest view of a situation as you can, research it, double/triple check, be rigorous and accept that you fallible humanity will never lead you to a perfect answer. Just a best guess. (Unless it's the hard sciences of course. 9 is the perfect answer to what is the square root of 81.)

    I did not misunderstand. Objective context would be the content of the object- Subject value.

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