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10 hours ago, Strange said:
Nope.Dark energy is just energy, not "exotic" energy or matter.
In order to keep a wormhole open, exotic matter or energy is required that repels ie it is the opposite of gravity. Dark energy repels it therefore fits the requirement to maintain a wormhole. Matter inside a wormhole would cause it to contract, out of existence, exotic matter(dark energy) keeps it open and allows it to expand.
Space expands and contracts like a wormhole migt do, due to gravity and exotic energy. Leaving me with the impression that we exist inside a wormhole , Over layered with space time,. I
In terms of a control system space appears to have developed from an unstable system which can be achieved by allowing +ve feedback, which could easily be achieved with an extra dimension..
10 hours ago, Strange said:Please provide a citation for " from a singulrity to all of space time".
You put the idea in my head. A BH is the exact opposite of a WH connected by a wormhole.
10 hours ago, Strange said:Please provide a citation for "requiring dark energy to keep it open to all of space time".
LMGTFY http://www.andersoninstitute.com/wormholes.html yes that is not an answer to your question, but some of it is interesting
Entering the throat of a worm hole in space time caused by a BH of sorts, mass less or otherwise and emerging from the other side seems a little difficult. You may just get stuck in the wormhole. never reaching the surface of the white hole. Nikodem Popalaski has something to say on this matter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikodem_Popławski but he may be getting carried away.
10 hours ago, Mordred said:Who said anything about spinning
You did on the quantum fluctuation thread I started and you alluded to a none spinning mass less BH and gave me the Popalawski link, which put ideas in my head. This may have sent me up the garden path
Sorry BUT we might exist inside a mass less BH/WH combination being expanded by a wormhole, which appears as space time in our reference frame. etc
Edit Just reading down the response to mark E, I might change my mind.:)
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12 hours ago, Strange said:
No it hasn't. Maybe you should read the article you posted, instead of just the headline.
Yes I recognised it was a magnetic shunt and regretted posting the link about 6 months before I posted it, when I first saw the claim. I should have referenced EPR and ER bridges and not complete crap, which I had been reading on another forum.
12 hours ago, Strange said:"A wormhole is effectively just a tunnel that connects two places in the Universe."
You keep claiming this, without ever backing up your claim. Exotic energy is required to keep a worm hole open, this has the same characteristics as dark energy, ie it repels whereas gravity attracts. There is absolutely no mathematical or philosophical reason why a worm hole should connect two points/singularities in a universe except in science fiction. You are trying to connect two singularities at opposite sides of the universe. An EPR allows quantum tunneling of particles , an ER is on a larger scale and allows flow from a singulrity to all of space time via an ER bridge requiring dark energy to keep it open to all of space time. (I mighty extend this idea to all particles/energy in the universe not just singularities, the math is terrible probably
) There is madness at the end of the tunnel
12 hours ago, Strange said:You have said this before. It obviously isn't true.
Yes it is, it is obviously correct.
12 hours ago, Strange said:Space is 3 of the dimensions of space-time, so I'm not sure what this means.
Space time is 4 dimensions, not 3
, EFE allow additional dimensions can be included. The various string theories have many more dimensions. Einstein played with them view EPR and ER one month later. Einstein was not a dummy.
12 hours ago, Strange said:You keep saying this, too. I assume it is just one of those random things you have made up as you have never provided any evidence for it.
Dark energy and the cosmologioal constant are fact according to standard theories what are you referencing.
12 hours ago, Strange said:Nope. Dark energy has to be positive energy.
What is +ve to one is negative to another, mathematically it is only a point of reference . If dark energy is +ve ,gravity is negative energy. and vice versa. In the end they are simply differences in potential energy.
What is classed as zero energy is a bit interesting at points in between dark energy and gravity.
2 hours ago, Mordred said:A universe that is expanding outward via a Schwartzchild will not be homogeneous or isotropic. Expanding outward is unto itself a preferred direction. Observational evidence does not support this.
The Swarzchild black hole assumes mass that is not spinning, a primordial black hole is something else. Do you have an opinion ref what space time was before the expansion of space time as implied by Alan Guth or possibly the BB which I understand is now a little dated.
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You are ALL making assumptions about the shape of the universe, and assuming it has an edge, which may not be correct. It has now been shown in the lab that wormholes / extra dimensions exist. https://www.sciencealert.com/magnetic-wormhole-that-connects-two-regions-of-space-has-been-created . These can connect a point in space to every where else in space. The concept of space just existing in space time coordinates with nothing else is a bit old hat. Having said that Einstein and co predicted ER and EPR bridges over a 100 years ago, along with things like white holes, which could be the source of dark energy and the expansion of the universe. etc. In a zero energy universe -ve energy + +ve energy = 0. This could be mass/energy + dark energy = 0 . or gravity + dark energy = 0(same thing)
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7 hours ago, Markus Hanke said:
A white hole (as the term is normally used) is a static construct, and cannot expand. Also, it can only exist in a spacetime that is completely empty, and asymptotically flat
An ER bridge between a WH and BH occupies what part of space time? How would you define space time inside an ER bridge? What would the output of an ER bridge look like in space time?
Fundamental features in flatland might be best explained via the HUP, adding an extra none spacial dimension might explain how an ER bridge works, how wave particle duality allows instantaneous wave function collapse, and how entanglement works. Plus loads more.
I have lot of things to do, so will not be online for a while. Thanks All for the input.
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On 6/1/2018 at 8:58 AM, Strange said:
Does that say anything about dark energy? No.
And quantum fluctuations already have an explanation. If you replace that, then you are saying that all of quantum theory is wrong. Good luck with that.
HUP yours
explains an effect not a cause. A WH still expanding in space time from the original BB inside a mass less BH, may have been interesting to explore and be a cause of Quantum fluctuations, perhaps eminating from gravitational waves in BH's etc.
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On 5/29/2018 at 7:45 PM, Strange said:
That is because the Einstein-Rosen bridge is based on a Schwarzschild black hole (because the mathematics is [relatively] simple). A Schwarzschild black hole is unchanging (eternal) in an otherwise empty universe - in other words, it is a simplification.
But black holes with spin (Kerr black holes) can also have wormholes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerr_metric#Kerr_black_holes_as_wormholes
Would you or anyone like to discuss Popalawski mentioned by Mordred earlier as a possible source of dark energy/quantum foam driving the expansion of the universe. http://www.thespaceacademy.org/2017/11/every-black-hole-contains-another.html
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole
Eternal Blackholes have no spin.
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7 hours ago, Mordred said:
Why would you think a WH has no spatial dimensions yet contain an entire universe with 3 spatial dimensions with one of time? Does it not have a volume hence 3 spatial dimensions it also evolves over time for the 4th dimension of time so how does it not have dimensions ?
Why would you think there would be no rotation when every BH we have found rotates and a WH is causally connected to a BH ie part of the same system connected through the Einstein Rosen bridge. ?
Those two arguments makes no sense sorry
You are probably correct as usual.
BH's forming inside existing space time and rotating inside space time which formed after the BB or White hole is a ludicrous idea especially if the expansion of space is driven from ER bridges and a White Hole instead of dark energy. I was thinking incorrectly all BH singularities may feed one big WH via an ER bridge, which is of course a ludicrous idea and a complete misunderstanding. The idea that all points in space may be connected is ludicrous and brought on by instantaneous wave form collapse, quantum entanglement and wave particle duality, which if an additional none spacial dimension connecting all points in space existed may go some way to adding to my confusion, and line of questioning.
If quantum fluctuations are the cause of dark energy and drive the expansion of space, what drives the quantum fluctuations. It just seemed reasonable that a WH might be behind it.
It just goes to show how wrong I can be. I may take up Swansons suggesting and go back to school.
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12 hours ago, Mordred said:
As you mentioned radiated from a WH, this is identical to radiating from a central source. This would entail a vector field as opposed to a scalar field such as the BB model. The type of vector field would be diverging. Regions closer to the WH will naturally have a higher mass density which is detectable via its temperature contributions. These temperature variations will also show up in the BAO, Baryon Acoustic oscillations which is a fancy way of describing the rate of infalling matter and outflowing matter on anistrophy distributions.
I also recall stating that a BH varies in rotation rate and thus so does its WH exit, this will vary the mass distributions as well.
So good luck in this theoretical view, Its been tried before and lost out with the body of evidence since the sheer uniformity of the CMB was measured.
Radiated at all points in space from a wormhole/non spacial dimension. How can a none spacial dimension have vectors?
A wormhole is a theoretical none spacial dimension, how would this rotate.
It is interesting to look at, even if it is only theoretical.
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On 5/27/2018 at 9:01 AM, Strange said:
Because (it appears) that you are proposing expansion from some central point.
I am not proposing anything of the sort. What I am proposing is in line with the Big Bang expansion of space.
You appear to be are asking me to speculate. My line of thought is as follows
You stated that a White Hole is the opposite of a BH on this thread. If this is true then Hawking radiation may have an equivalent on the surface of a white hole this may manifest itself as Quantum foam and or the expansion of space.
I am thinking that a worm hole / none spacial dimension from a white hole connects all points in space via an ER bridge. The energy radiated from the White Hole drives the expansion of space, and possibly appears as Quantum foam. The white hole could be the source of zero point energy and of dark energy. As was mentioned above some people have been looking at the possibility that our universe is a white hole.
You stated on another thread words to the effect of, " the waves in wave particle duality pass through all points in space before manifesting them selves as particles at a specific point in space". If the wave is passing through all points in space, why could this not be by a non spacial dimension connected to all points in space.
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On 5/21/2018 at 7:29 PM, Mordred said:
I for one know every attempt I have ever seen to apply white holes for the source of the cosmological constant or DM has for one reason or another failed due to the sheer homogeneous and isotropic nature of the universe as well as the sheer constancy of the cosmological constant itself.
I have already provided several of the reasons in this thread.
I fully recognize your expertise.
If a White hole is accepted as the source of the BB, dark energy and all of space time, quantum fluctuations etc does it change any of Einsteins theories.
Why would the output from a ER Bridge from a or multiple BH's to a WH have to be non homogeneous. If a ER bridge exists at a singularity to all of space time does it not explain questions like those raised in this link http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2010/02/22/energy-is-not-conserved/
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8 hours ago, swansont said:
One way would be to go to graduate school in physics and learn the necessary math and physics.
It seems you cant answer my questions and you have done some physics courses I do not wish to learn outdated ideas I want to know the latest.
Another way to go, would be to get a good picture of what is happening, and then develop a mathematical model based upon a plausible explanation of all the observations.
White Holes are plausible, and are a reasonable explanation of why the universe is expanding and a plausible origin for a big bang. For anyone to stick there head in the sand and deny this is moronic.
The reason I mentioned the strong force is that Dark Matter could just as easily be explained away by an additional long range force not affected by distance the same as gravity.
There are many extant theories whereby Quantum fluctuations or Dark energy are the cause of the expanding universe, and of gravity.I seem to be getting more useful answers from wikipedia, than I do from this forum.
The maths in many instances does not explain why something is happening.
I have learned quite a lot on this forum, and realized some time ago when an answer is not forthcoming a straw man debate is started, so I will thank you all and be on my merry way
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On 5/19/2018 at 10:40 AM, swansont said:
Without maths you aren't doing science. Plenty of stuff that "made sense" was wrong. The only way to see if it is is to make testable predictions and compare with experiment.
Yes, I agree (mostly). But many models are put together to explain observations, without observations the maths is meaningless.
The strong force does not decrease with distance. Could it being transmitted via a wormhole/other dimension?
How would one put together a mathematical model to suggest hawking radiation from a BH might be mirrored by its opposite a WH and appear as dark energy causing the expansion of space.
White holes are plausible, and would be connected to Black Hole's via ER bridge. One causing the contraction of space time and the other the expansion of space time.
Could an ER bridge be the source of the Big Bang.
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On 15/05/2018 at 8:53 AM, swansont said:
"Makes sense" really requires mathematical models to be sure. i.e. doing science, rather than the linking of personal toy models that one constructs based on reading about science.
Makes sense. Really requires an understanding of a process which does not necessarily in the real world require mathematical models, ie doing maths is not science, or in all cases pratical. If you have a personal theory of what dark matter is or why things happen please let us all know.
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16 hours ago, Strange said:
Definitely. That is part of the definition of a white hole. In a black hole, all paths lead to the singularity. In a white hole all paths lead from the singularity and out of the event horizon (a white hole is the opposite of Hotel California: you can leave any time you like but can never check in).
A white hole starts at the event horizon and expands from there via a wormhole/ER bridge (dimension operating outside of normal space time) .The singularity does not exist as a location in space time dimensions. The expansion of space time dimensions is in every direction all around us, causing the effect of dark energy/cosmological constant.
If a white hole is the cause of the accelerating expansion of the universe,the original big bang and quantum fluctuations the HUP. Then life makes a little more sense from the point of view cause and effect.
I see know reason that any emissions from a ER bridge would not produce even pressures every where in space time. The ER bridge is operating outside of space time dimensions and restrictions.
16 hours ago, Strange said:No one knows what this represents, if anything. It could be a different place (and time) in our universe. It could be a different universe. It could just be a mathematical result with no physical meaning... It may disappear when we have a theory of quantum gravity.
Also, white holes may not appear as a possible solution in a theory that includes quantum gravity. For example, string theory has a model for black holes (very different from the classical one) but, as far as I know, has no equivalent to a white hole.
The expansion of space is happening it is being driven by something, a WH seems a logical cause of dark energy and the cosmological constant.
Having read a bit on string theory now, I am not convinced, for instance I think the graviton does not even suck, I dont think it exists, and the graviton is part of string theory.
17 hours ago, MarkE said:Not everybody agrees about that (read this article). To summarise it, “Energy isn’t conserved; it changes because spacetime does”.
How does a zero energy universe expalin the expansion of space and black holes.
16 hours ago, Strange said:Hence the uniformity of the CMB.
Why would an ER bridge from a BH to a WH not produce uniform expansion of space and uniform CMB
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47 minutes ago, Mordred said:
A white hole is theoretically conmected to a BH via the Einstein Rosen bridge, however neither a wormhole or WH has ever been located or observed (strictly theoretical). They may or may not exist...
The connection is also applied in am old Penrose diagram here
Thanks again.
The Penrose diagram shows a parallel universe, am I correct in thinking that this is extra dimensions, not necessarily space time dimensions existing alongside space time dimensions and that the ER bridge connects them to the BH singularities?
If the above is correct. What kind of information could be transferred via a ER bridge to other dimensions in our space time and how might it manifest itself in what we perceive?
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14 hours ago, Strange said:
As white holes come from the mathematics of GR and quantum foam from quantum theory, and we currently have no way of combining the, there seems to be no connection there.
I understand that some time in the future a version of Quantum gravity will be developed. All the various attempts at producing theories to explain various effects are all trying to understand exactly what is going on. But like any model garbage in equals garbage out.
14 hours ago, Strange said:I don't know how being inside a white hole could reproduce the isometry and homogeneity of the universe, the CMB, expansion or dark energy.
Not knowing is why I keep asking questions.
14 hours ago, Strange said:You would rapidly be expelled!
Maybe
BUT Which way is out, when from any point in space we appear to be at the centre of the universe.
16 hours ago, Mordred said:White holes or blackholes spin. They also vary in the rates of spin and vary in the amount of material they gather. The very nature of a spinning hole whether black or white will give a preferred location ie centre.
A white hole cannot avoid causing a spinning universe (assuming white holes exist and we are in the event horizon). The mass distribution cannot be completel uniform due to rotation and varied feeding rates of the hole.
Does this also apply at the Big Bang, before space time existed. Could a Black hole at some point in the future of a white hole be connected via a wormhole.
16 hours ago, Mordred said:This is the reason why Poplowskii used spin and torsion coupled with time dilation affects and Einstein Carton theory to attempt to maintain a homogeneous and isotropic universe and explain DE.
I downloaded lots of things on Poplawski yesterday but did not find anything ref white holes, or being inside a WH event horizon. Do you have a link? I did however find a lot of things suggesting we are inside a Black hole rather than a white hole.
16 hours ago, Mordred said:In essence the WMAP data showed that the universe is too homogeneous and isotropic to make white hole theories feasible once you fully consider ALL the dynamics of a BH or WH. (ie varied spin and feeding rates).
Doesnt time dilation around black holes etc show space time is non homogeneous.
16 hours ago, Mordred said:PS Quora is not a good source you get far too many crackpot ideas on that site and anyone can post their own ideas etc on it.
I agree, I sometimes answer questions on electrical engineering and control systems on Quora
If space had another dimension before the BB and space time started, like a wormhole to know where, when the BB happened this dimension would continue to exist. Could something like this connect a BH in the future to a White hole in the past, and still be in existence today unaffected by time all around us in space, allowing information to move from the BH singularity to a White hole singularity?
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11 hours ago, swansont said:
Plus copyright/plagiarism rules demand it.
www,Quora author Victor Roth
18 hours ago, Mordred said:Might be a good idea to include the site link, many sites are rather poor or misleading. At one-time some cosmologist did look into the white hole possibility yet those models started to lose interest when the WMAP data was published. Poplowskii once went this route with using spin and torsion under Einstein Cartan tbeory.
In what way does the WMAP results preclude the white hole theory of a Big Bang https://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/features/wmap-complete.html
Could being inside the event horizon of something like a white hole be the cause of quantum foam, or dark energy and the expansion of space time?
Could a White hole singularity be connected to a BH singularity via a wormhole or other dimension existing outside space time. ?
What is wrong with being inside a white hole event horizon.
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On 5/8/2018 at 2:14 PM, swansont said:
Questions of this nature are probably best addressed by asking if anyone is investigating (or has investigated) such a possibility. That removes the hint of it being a speculation that might have to be defended. The best way to find out is probably a search of arXiv.
People have looked for a "fifth force" or gravity modification and there has not been evidence of it at long ranges that properly fit the data.
After a bit of googling I found this informative answer on another site.
"
The Big Bang may not be different at all from a white hole.
It is true, as it is often pointed out, that a white hole singularity is a location in space, whereas the Big Bang is a moment in time. However, this distinction is valid only for observers who are outside the white hole’s event horizon. To those inside the event horizon, the singularity is, in fact, a “naked” singularity in time, in the past. And this observer would in fact experience a universe that appears to be governed by the same Friedmann equations that describe the homogeneous, isotropic Big Bang cosmology.
There is still another difference. Whereas inside the white hole event horizon, all world lines originate at the singularity, outside the event horizon there are world lines that have different origins or (depending on the nature of the surrounding universe) may have existed forever. In contrast, in a Big Bang universe, only those worldlines that originate at the singularity exist; there is no “outside”.
But observationally, at least at present, we don’t seem to have the means to distinguish the two. So it is conceivable that our Big Bang universe is, in fact, the interior of a white hole event horizon in a larger universe.
"
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38 minutes ago, Strange said:
then we would expect the acceleration of expansion to be greater in some directions than others.
The hubble constant is only approximately constant indicating expansion is greater in some directions, also it changes over time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble's_law#Observed_values_of_the_Hubble_constant
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On 5/3/2018 at 10:56 AM, swansont said:
That is true.
One or both are incorrect. You appear to be assuming they are both correct, and invoking some sort of magic to make things work. A reasonable question would be to ask if we know, or at least have hints of, which one is correct, or some other question about how we reconcile the discrepancy. A WAG about it, even phrased as a question, does not count as a reasonable response.
As a starting point for discussion or amusement
Could dark energy be due to a white hole resulting from a black hole existing in the past.
Furthermore could an additional long range force not affected by distance but weaker than gravity be the cause of the apparent dark matter and the universe not accelerating too fast due to zero point energy. ie additional long range force energy - zero point energy = cosmological expansion rate .
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Sorry for the question.
In a black hole according to relativity time slows or stops. From a photons perspective time stops and space is reduced towards zero. Does the space inside a black hole cease to exist or become a gateway to another dimension or white hole perhaps existing in the future.If time stops in normal space time, or time ceased to exist does space cease to exist also.
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On 4/16/2018 at 3:15 PM, dimreepr said:
Who cares?
Roughly translated, God knows, or who gives a fuck.
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Edge of the universe split from A centre of mass of the Universe.
in Speculations
Posted
A clear understanding of what space is, is required to answer the question, I do not think one exists.
space time includes ER / EPR bridges which have wormholes around space time. Inside a wormhole distance/volume are not an issue.
Could an absence of spacial volume be regarded as the inside of a wormhole, or another dimension where space and or time is not required.
Could the universe exist inside a wormhole or another none spacial dimension. ?
As a kind of superposition thereom could we exist inside a wormhole which exists as a result of a MECO BH / WH interaction.