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Outrider

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Everything posted by Outrider

  1. SSC The Desertron! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider
  2. Zapatos Pretty sure swansont was agreeing with you well on what your discussion was about anyways. According to me and Gerald Ford and the 1975 congress? Its a fair point. It is just possible that the monument is a tribute to his service in the Mexican War but much more likely that uniform has a CSA somewhere on it. All I can do is repeat what I already said I think for Lee it was a choice between tratior to his country or tratior to his state. He loved Virginia more.
  3. He was never tried or convicted of anything but you are right he did admit his guilt. But then he came back to this country and worked hard to bring it back together. Wasn't a tratior, was a tratior, wasn't a tratior. Died not a tratior and I don't think he deserves to be remembered as one.
  4. And your thinking more of Athens specifically and some might argue (not me) it wasn't a democracy.
  5. I like this but this I like this... ...even better. I would prefer to see less monuments to dignitaries and more to ideals. If we spent more time looking at the way we would like to be maybe we would more resemble it.
  6. 1st are you sure its federaly funded I thought Charlottesville maintained it? Regardless I doubt your objection would change and neither would my answer. Its hardly an unusual arrangement. Take the Washington statue in London is it not maintained by British taxpayers? Often gifts of this sort are given by other governments (Statue of Liberty comes to mind) or wealthy individuals and then maintained through public coffers. BTW Mcintire also gifted Charlottesville with statues of Stonewall Jackson, Lewis and Clarke and George Rogers Clark. The last being a revolutionary hero who died long before the civil war. Would you like to remove any of those on the same grounds? I'm actually not a big fan of doing or keeping this or that because the forefathers did. Whether we are talking about this statue or gun control we are our own people and we should do what we think is right. So my answer to your question is no. But Lee was pardoned and his citizenship restored. It says so (you didn't leave it on purpose) in the very next paragraph from your cite. And that was only the first time. https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2005/spring/piece-lee.html You can say once a tratior always a tratior but I don't and U.S. government dosent see it that way.
  7. Nice beecee thanks. The article was a short and good read I recommend it to all.
  8. No hence the question mark. So would you be ok with a federally funded Lee library? Note the question mark please. What does this have to do with anything? 3 well actually 4 proposals have been made: 1.Leave the statue(s) alone and nothing. Easily the worst of the bunch and if Charlottesville decides to do this I will be sorely disappointed. 2. Destroy them. 3. Move them to museums and such. 4. Change the plaques to show all their deeds both honorable and despicable. I am much in favor with this one. But why we do this is just as important as doing it. Among my other objections to the "tratior reason" I would like to add that I think it takes away from the only reason that we need. I really don't know what else I can say at this point I could list Lee's more honorable deeds if you want but I really don't see the point. Gonna start a new thread on some of the other slaveowners soon. I think its a conversation that should be had. Hope yo sre you there.
  9. Does this mean you favor the removal of his statues and the renaming of his library?
  10. Okay. If you say you want to move the statue because Lee was a slaveowner. I say OK lets do it today. If you say you want to move the statue because hate groups use it as a symbol. I say oh yeah lets get this done. If you say you want to move the statue because some people are offended and/or feel oppressed by it. I say lets not wait another day. If you say you want to move the statue because Lee was a tratior. I say show me where he was tried and convicted. Lee served his country before and after the war and I don't think he deserves the tratior brand and even if you convince me he does I will still find the crime of slavery far far worse.
  11. The one in London of course. Oddly enough a gift from Virginia in 1924. https://almostchosenpeople.wordpress.com/2012/05/25/george-washington-in-trafalgar-square/
  12. Ten oz Maybe for you its about tratiors but that's not why all those people showed up in Charlottesville and it has nothing to do with the proposal to remove Lee's statue. http://fortune.com/2017/08/13/charlottesville-statue-lee-removal/ Here are a couple more articles I found interesting and thought might be food for thought. https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/robert-e-lee-v-what-its-like-to-carry-around-this-name/2017/08/17/991e470e-8363-11e7-b359-15a3617c767b_story.html?tid=a_inl-amp&utm_term=.ab33d5753ff3 Robert E. Lee V great great grandson of Lee when asked about the statue and Lee's legacy. From newsweek I thought was a good read. http://www.newsweek.com/think-about-you-tear-down-robert-e-lee-statue-655965 Its been a very long time since I did any serious reading on the civil war but this sounds about right.
  13. Please be very carefull when researching the civil war as of 2002 there exists over 70,000 books on the subject and my WAG would be that at least 30% of whats written is pure speculation. IMO the best you can do is gather many different viewpoints, weigh them carefully and decide what you want to believe. I believe that its true that only 5 to 10% of americans owned slaves at any given time. But for the ones that didn't freeing the slaves still threatened their lifestyle. For one it would increase competition for some of the better jobs for another the poorest southerners knew that emancipation would be less of a step up for African Americans and more of a step down for them. Class warfare was very much in play all over our new country at this time. Also look at the period before the war in Kansas and other territories the war was already on with both sides rushing to spill blood. Yes you are right this war, like any other war, was about different things for different people but make no mistake its focal point was slavery.
  14. Very good post MigL I appreciate it. But how bout instead of some dead white guys head on our money we just put "love everybody".
  15. I have no problem with any of that. If todays politicians had to walk past a statue of Washington denouncing him as a slaver and exterminator of innocents (also acknowledging his achievements) maybe they would think through their decisions more carefully. As for "acting in good faith" both Washington and Lee acknowledged that slavery was immoral and then made their excuses and continued on. I actually though John C. had a better idea (I'm fixing to quote it). I think it shows great strength on our part to acknowledge our dark history and show how far we have come. I think it doesn't hurt from time to time to pat ourselves on the back. I am proud of America and I think our history is one of continual improvement albeit way to slow. Excellent idea John I think the signs should both note the good they did along with the evil. And also note that we are (for the most part) getting better.
  16. I stated earlier destroy all monuments of former slave owners and erect the words "never again". Looking back I guess that's kind of extreme but then so is human bondage. My opinon on this is very much in flux and I'm looking for your comments and others to help me make up my mind. If I was trying to exonerate Lee of the crime of being a slave owner that would be true but I have no such intention so. Your original query was should the confederate monuments be removed. I expanded it to all slave owners and other crimes against humanity. I thought it related enough however since this is your thread if you really want me to open another I will. Note: when I say crimes I mean things we all agree should never be done whether they were legal at the time or not. Well yeah I agree but I want to know what you and others think. I find it important. Thank you for your reply and yes I agree with all of that. More when I have time. While I'm sure somebody somewhere is I don't think anyone here is certainly not me.
  17. Yes it does bother me too particularly being a white boy from the south. The OPs question (I think) was should we remove civil war monuments? My answer is yes but my question is is that enough? My answer is no. BTW neither you or Ten oz answered my questions above. I wish you would.
  18. Ok but I thought the question was should the statue be there not why it was there. Here I'll formally ask it. Should we have monuments dedicated to former slave owners? And another because I think Washington and others did some great things but also some really awful things. Can great achievements cancel out terrible crimes?
  19. Who is this W.E.B. and why should I listen to him?/sarcasm I read your link and it is a fair point but I would remind you Washington also took an oath to a king. But none of that really matters to me Washington was a tratior to a country that regularly practised genocide to aquire new land and Lee was a tratior to a country that did the same thing. What supercedes all (for me) is they both owned slaves.
  20. I'm willing to bet Waitforufo's claim "there are more history books written about the Civil War than any other subject in world history " is not to far off the mark. https://civilwartalk.com/threads/how-many-books-have-been-written-about-the-civil-war.7708/ Also Amazon has over 100 books published this year listed for sell. Lee was opposed to secession before the war and he supported reconstruction after the war. When Virginia seceded it left Lee with a choice, be a tratior to the U.S. or be a tratior to his home state. It is well documented that this was a painfull choice for him. Lee was considered an honorable man by many in the north before, during and after the war. Some evidence for this would be U.S. Grant publicly inviting Lee to the White House during his term as POTUS. I don't think the statue needs to come down because he was a tratior or that Lee even deserves to be branded as such. Also you have no evidence that "the war may not have even occurred or would have been short." if Lee would have commanded U.S. forces. The south's main advantage was that they got to play defense not superior leadership as is commonly thought. For evidence look to U.S. vs Korea and similar. Lee's statue should come down because he treated human life as personal property and no other reason is needed or even wanted. All these red herrings you and others are pointing to is just taking the focus from where it belongs. Washington, Jackson, Jefferson, Lee all owned persons and all spoke against the practice. I say actions speak louder than words. Lets twist Trump's words and take them all down and replace them with two words "Never Again". P.S. The "long walk of the Navajo" took place in 1863 during the civil war. Native Americans were marched 450 miles by the U.S. government (you know the one Lee is a tratior to) and stragglers, mostly women and children, were shot. 2,500 died. I wonder what president ordered that massacre?
  21. Whew I'm finally home. 2 hours to get there and 4 to get back plus a stop to eat. The outbound traffic was something probably never seen in this area before. It was so worth it I don't think I ever will (I hope I don't) get the image of the corona blazing around the moon out of my mind. We had a very good and polite crowd at the park we stopped at and just perfect blue skies. Zapatos and others have done a fine job of describing what I witnessed today but words as well as pictures could never do it justice. The eerie darkness and coolness was really neat and the moon slowly swallowing the sun. But wow the suns corona was easily the highlight of the show. I took some pictures on my phone but they unsurprisingly turned out bad. Cheers to you all and heres to 2024. The cool air inside the zone of totality is pushing out to displace the warmer air outside? Just my guess but I would think its not to far off the mark. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will correct or add some detail.
  22. Hello All Happy Eclipse Day! Im at work now but leaving in about 45 minutes for Lebanon Tenn which is 2 hours north of here and very close to centerline. I got my ISO certified glasses. I'm really excited as its my first total. Hope everyone has a safe and good day. And no clouds!
  23. Yes you did. You claimed something (you usually not so vauge) that Studiot posted is nonsense. What is nonsense? The infographic in the OP? In what way is it nonsense? Would not usefull be a better term? With the exception of entertainment purposes I probably wouldn't argue too much. Maybe usefull in studying how we react to low probability events. John implied that Studiot is a victim of confirmation bias and you seemed to agree. I disagree and wish you and/or him would explain why it applies here. Also I don't think Studiot has made any claims yet except for saying leylines are bunk. Studiot I still don't think you have made your point. I wish you would get to it. Isn't that what the strong anthropic principle is all about? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle BTW one of the things I like about the Lincoln/Kennedy thing is almost no one draws a paranormal connection. In contrast tell someone about Violet Constance Jessop and they may draw all sorts of amusing connections. Also these things hardly ever work perfectly for example Abe and John weren't really inaugurated 100 years apart it was more like 99 and 10 months. But close enough for a fun little story.
  24. So the pepper leylines and historical coincidences are the same? I don't disagree. Doesn't take the fun out of it at least not for me.
  25. Yeah I wasn't really impressed with my definition either. Like many other things I think I know what it means but when I try to precisely define the word it's not so easy. I did look it up before and saw your definition and others. I didn't really like any of them. How about "a low probability series of events that we tend to connect in some arbitrary way". No thats not really that good either. Guess I'll just wait on you. I had to look up leylines and I have no idea where you are going with that. Oh and BTW this has been discussed somewhat beforehttp://www.scienceforums.net/topic/102779-coincidences-sought/
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