TakenItSeriously

These types of arguements are typically ones in which something may hold true in one domain while they may not hold true in all domains.

 

As a mechanical engineer, he is probably referencing the conversation of matter which states that in a closed system, the amount of matter stays the same which is true in the domain in which we live, but fails in more extreme sciences, where particles can spontaneously appear and disappear, though not in any way that would concern the world around us.

 

As far as the math question, it sounds like it's a semantics argument. Math is a human construct but there are mathematical relationships in nature as well as universal mathematical relationships such as pi or prime numbers.

 

As an engineer, he probably knows that electrical, mechanical, and fluid dynamics all are based on the same set of formulas where each component in a system has an analogous counterpart I.e. capacitor, spring, or storage tank..

 

I believe Fractals are patterns that are said to occur in nature though even that statement can be interpreted in different ways.

Back on topic, since it seems like the Big Crunch is out, i would think that any death of the universe scenario that predicts a finit time to die then it's just a matter of time before time looses meaning. Though I'm not sure if that counts.

Not a competing school of thought at all, just a misconception.

As other members have told you, modern science ( which by necessity includes QM ) does not allow for such a localization of a quantum particle.

Zero motion implies you know its position and momentum, an impossibility.

And not because of any measuring limitations.

That's just the way reality is.

Ok but to be fair, I've always stated it as a hypothetical state that I didn't think was possible. And I still wonder at the wisdom or logic to label any theoretical boundary condition as an absolute because regardless of how axiomatic a theoretical max/min is, it's still no basis for them holding up over time..

In a way it is a competing school of thought. Zero motion is based in classical physics, while zero-point in quantum. People citing zero motion are likely looking at classical thermodynamics.

Thanks, just curious, what replaced classical physics as the next paradine?

 

Edit to add, just realized that was a truly dumb question

You really are not getting the message here, are you.

"if an object could be frozen to abs 0, and that state included properties of being static (no acc) and 0 energy, "

No. even at absolute zero the atoms and molecules are still moving; (and accelerating too) they vibrate.

If they did not then their positional uncertainty would be zero their momentum uncertainty would also be zero because you would know where they were (neatly arranged in a lattice) and their momentum would be zero.

And that is (whether you like it or not) a violation of the uncertainty principle.

 

The expression for the energy of a simple oscillator is given here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_harmonic_oscillator

as

 

 

 

and there's no integer value of n for which that energy is zero.

Ok, I see where my confusion comes from now. After looking it up I found it defined as a theoretical minimum of zero-point energy, which is a quantum boundary condition which still allows for movement.

 

But another source defined it as where all motion in matter stops, which seems ironic, since it was a story about achieving -absolute temperatures which makes me doubt the source.

http://www.iflscience.com/physics/journey-other-side-absolute-zero

 

I did see another article which reported the *same story but called absolute zero a state at what most considered to be a theoretical minimum which the author was at least smart enough to qualify that definition given the story being reported. Though he also said it could also be seen as a temperature over infinity, so... I'd prefer to think of it as breaching theoretical minimum.

 

It was taught to me as meaning 0 motion as well and I can even recall the professor emphasizing the point by stating that not even electrons moved which is why it stuck with me. But that was a long time ago.

 

I always just assumed it was a hypothetical state similar to 100% efficiency I also recall hearing about a theory back then relating absolute zero to time that has stopped, but that came second hand and I never verified it which wasn't so easy to do back then.

 

So just to be clear, do you know if zero motion is just a competing school of thought, or a widespread misconception based on the name? Which does seem poorly chosen TBH

 

*sorry not the same story.

It seemed to me that the 4x gravity over our own spacetime mass and the ~4x energy over that total implied a new particle model that provided multipliers over distance, but not so locally. That seemed to require some extradimensional space framework.

 

This is as opposed to finding independant sources that we can't detect seeming so unlikely for something so much bigger than all known matter.

 

Before dark matter was known, I'd always thought that a particle wave model must be represented by a point on a rolling wheel that would define a wave and a particle just like three points define a plane. However, I could never imagine how a single particle could move in that revolving motion so it required a second particle. At that time I thought it would double our gravity which I thought was a detractor for this model, until dark matter made it a supporter of this model.

 

since we also needed a second perpendicular wave to complete our model, it seemed a little too convenient that doubling the pairs accounted for all the extra gravity needed. I would imagine it required some extradimensional forces to bind this model together, though I had no idea if electromagnetic forces would still work extra-dimensionally.

 

The other thing I liked about this model would be that gravity wells would only be expressed in their own particular dimensional space times but since the particles were bound to each other, then the long distance attractions would be accumulative for 4x the force.

 

I never got as far as trying to adapt it for dark energy and I'm just spitballing ideas but what if for every particle that gets merged into a singularity the other 3/4 dark matter gets converted into energy.

 

could using E=3MCC for all BH masses create enough energy despite black holes making up for such a small percentage of known matter?

 

IDK, I'm only trying to account for the fact that DM needs to act at 4X over galactic distances yet not do nothing extra to force collapsing stars. Same thing with DE, when they only count to accelerate galaxies, while not blowing them apart.

 

I'm pretty decent at creating logical constructs, but I don't really understand the math behind the science so I was wondering if it was a viable construct based on what we know.

The only (known) mechanism for black holes to lose mass is via Hawking radiation. This is thermal radiation. But, for any realistic sized black hole, this is insignificant and far less than the amount of mass and energy that the black hole gains.

I see. That's too bad, because I was thinking that black holes might not be bound by the speed of light for energy distribution. Perhaps the gravitational effects are expressed locally but maybe singularities were all extra dimensionally close so energy could be distributed across the universe through something like a singularity net. Kind of like how chips on a poker table all still exist locally but their value is dynamically fluctuating universally.

It is generally thought that dark energy has always had a constant effect but at some point this became stronger than the effects of gravity (as things got further apart).

Ok, thanks!

 

I was just starting to reach that same kind of a conclusion as a decreasing concentration about some hypothetical universal center of gravity.

 

I'm sure it's all been well thought out before, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I just can't stop myself once I start thinking down a certain path.

 

Edit to add:

Here's an idea that might not have been explored. As a poker player in a poker tournament, we experience this thing called ICM, where player action destroys monetary value locally and instantaneously distributes that value to the entire field. This is caused by the effect that chip value is dynamic and relativistic due to money awarded to players when they go broke as opposed to cashing out.

 

So, I understand that black holes go through some kind of slow decay of mass over time. Since energy can't escape, perhaps it's just instantaneously distributed to the rest of the universe somehow as dark energy? This would convert a localized gravity effect to a universal acceleration effect perhaps? To explain the acceleration as opposed to deceleration that gravity alone could account for.

The universe has always been expanding post Big Bang.

 

We believe it expanded exponentially ( inflation ) in the brief instant following the Big Band, and then 'settled down' into a nice leisurely, close to linear expansion.

Lately in the last several Bil yrs, the expansion seems to be accelerating again ( not as extremely as inflation, however ), indicating that whatever effect drives expansion, it has changed.

This change is labelled dark energy.

I'm not a physicist though I'm somewhat aware of why inflation is assumed. However, I always assumed that accelerated expansion was constant through time. Are you saying that galaxies beyond some number of light years distance are not accelerating away from us while closer galaxies are?

 

Wouldn't that imply that dark energy would need to be introduced into the universe at some point?

 

Edit to add: Now I'm wondering if this could this be some kind of exponential decay relationship that transitioned past the knee of the curve perhaps it's a net mass to energy conversion over time as heavier elements are created that might account for this? Just speculating...

 

Or maybe mass to energy conversion as mass gets sucked up by black holes? Though, That would seem to imply that galaxies should be losing their integrity as well.

I think absolute zero is considered zero time, but since you can only approach that asymptotically according to thermodynamics, then no.

Time isn't affected by temperature.

sure it is, freeze an atomic clock to absolute zero for an hour then unfreeze it, and the clock has lost an hour of time.

Zero motion = zero time is experienced

No.

Just plain wrong on two counts.

Firstly, absolute zero doesn't imply no motion (which would be a breach of the uncertainty principle and secondly

 

"Currently, the most accurate atomic clocks first cool the atoms to near absolute zero temperature by slowing them with lasers and probing them in atomic fountains in a microwave-filled cavity. "

from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_clock

Ok, I'm not saying it's possible and I'm not sure arguing about impossible states makes much sense however, I don't know if those are valid arguements regardless.

 

It seems to me that:

 

if an object could be frozen to abs 0, and that state included properties of being static (no acc) and 0 energy, I still don't think Heisenburg is violated because doing something like bouncing a photon off of it would mean it's no longer in a 0 energy state and not observing it implies that it doesn't exist in space time which still doesn't violate quantum mechanics.

 

Also, for an atomic clock to work in that state it requires an electron to transition in energy states.

 

To reinforce John's comment.

 

The statement that motion ceases at absolute zero is disingenuous because the full statement is

 

The vibrational motion of the atoms of a perfect crystal approaches zero as the temperature approaches absolute zero.

 

That is not to say that other forms of motion is forbidden, even for instance simple translational motion of the crystal itself.

Constant velocity and 0 velocity are equivalent because from the POV of the object, it's not moving, anything around it is moving.

Time isn't affected by temperature.

sure it is, freeze an atomic clock to absolute zero for an hour then unfreeze it, and the clock has lost an hour of time.

 

Zero motion = zero time is experienced

I think absolute zero is considered zero time, but since you can only approach that asymptotically according to thermodynamics, then no.

Not really keen on the language indicating movement at some velocity. No such thing from inside a spaceship with no mass such as a planet or distant sun around to provide any kind of reference. Either your accelerating or not accelerating. To a passerby, then your moving at a fixed velocity but to you, it's the other guy who's moving.