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Hans de Vries

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Everything posted by Hans de Vries

  1. Europeans are barely religious. The most irreligious places in the world are located in Europe (former DDR, Czech Republic, Nordic countries). Maybe we're making things more complicated than they really are? I started this thread to discuss possible strategies of defeating Islamism. So far we're discussing about what exactly constitutes secularism. Aren't these two a bit different? CharonY, what's exactly your opinion on Sharia law? Not legal systems that employ elements of sharia bu sharia as a whole, in it's purest form.
  2. Tradition did matter a lot. That's why some Arab countries did not abolish slavery until 1950s-60s and they only did that because of western pressure. The belief that individual human being - not God, king, state or society - is the most important entity and the ultimate creator and bearer of rights is typically western invention. Nowhere in human history were human rights as important as in post-Enlightenment Western World. At first this ideology was immature but it's seeds did germinate fully.
  3. Aren't you mixing apples with oranges? Daesh is not some group of disillusioned people that will dissolve once their grievances are addressed. Daesh are ideologists and ideologists of a particularily pesky type - religious warriors. They view themselves as the only true representatives of Allah on Earth, and therefore, the only legitimate political power in the world belongs to them. The rest are just usurpers.
  4. Want to throw my last word regarding America - KKK lost because by the time of it's creation United States already had an established tradition of human and civil rights, dating back to pre-revolution times (the Bill of Rights and so on). KKK's cause wasn't helped either by their relatively closed nature. The recruiting pool of KKK consistent entirely of one strictly defined group of people - white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant. Combine these two factors and you'll see that KKK was destined to fail. The Middle East has almost no tradition of human rights protection. In all ME countries secularization was forced from above, either by colonial governments, or through military coups (markets in Mecca were still trading slaves in early 1960s). Most people there would at least tolerate Daesh - they have their own social services, they pretty much leave people alone as long as they adhere to prescribed rules of behavior and don't criticize Daesh.
  5. I am Dutch living in the Netherlands. I am not in contact with US Christianity. I forgot about casualties. Since last year ISIS has been responsible for more than 1000 civilian deaths - including stonings, beheadings and bombings of civilians. IF we also count the period between 2003 and 2014, this figure easily grows to 20-25,000. For Ku Klux Klan, the figures are as follows 1st Clan (1865-1867) - 1500 killed 2nd Clan (1915-1944) - 416 killed 3rd clan (1954-1958) - 15 killed 4th clan (1979-1981) - 5 killed 5th clan (1981-present) - 1 killed The disparity is easily seen. Over the last year ISIS killed at least 2x more people than KKK has over the last 100 years.
  6. No amount of sharia law in the legal system is acceptable. I want to see 100% secular countries all around the Middle East. By secular I mean countries in which most of the population either does not believe in God or are only nominal believers and in which religion plays no role in politics. So I want to see liberals/libertarians and leftists dominating the political scene. No salafists, no Muslim Brotherhoods and no no clashes between so-and-so branches of clergy like in Iran.
  7. For heaven''s sake, stop comparing ISIS to KKK. They are two totally different organizations, they arose in different cultural areas and they have nothing in common except that they are both considered extremist. KKK is a white supremacist and nationalist organization, with religion fulfilling a tertiary role. Additionally, their goal is very narrowly defined - creating a "pure", "white" society within the borders of the United States of America. They don't want to kill all blacks, conquer the entire world or even take over the US government if such a takeover is not needed for the creation of their "pure" society. ISIS differs from KKK heavily in that matter. It's sole purpose of existence is conquest - perpetual and unending. They literally want to take over the world. The nature of their relationship with religion is also different. The kind of religion practiced by KKK is so fringe and so insane that it is not even considered a form of Christianity. ISIS has very strong theological support - all their declarations are full of quotations from the Quran, hadiths and works about sharia law. The greatest Islamic theologians in history all adhered to an interpretation of Islam that is very close to that of ISIS, if not exactly the same.
  8. It is absolutely impossible to create any reconstruction of Muhammad's life based on Quran alone. The word "Muhammad" is mentioned only four times through the Quran, in such an ambigous way that it;s impossible to say whether it's a name, a title etc. 95% of info about Muhammad and the early history of Islam does not come from the Quran. It comes from hadiths and sira (Muhammad's biography). Do you reject them as well?
  9. Authorship of the Quran is a secondary issue here. Muhammad probably suffered from some kind of mental ilness during the first part of his prophetic career, and later (once hallucinations stopped) he simply started making things up according to his own whims and wishes. Neverthless, it can be regarded as more reliable because the period of it's oral transmission was shorter. Muhammad's "revelations" started in 609 or 610 AD and ended in 632 AD a few months before his death. The first written Qurans come from, I believe, 680s and you see them regularly in 8th century. So it took about half a century of oral transmission before we see a fairy standarized text. Now look at the Old Testament. It was compiled around 600 BC and it's latest part dates back from 900 BC(?) but describes events from between 2000 and 1400 BC. So in the best scenerio you have 500 years of oral transmission of OT stories before their written record shows up - so many centuries of storytelling can render any story unrecognizable. But 50 years is not a long period of time and during that time the transmission of the Quran wasn't completely oral as people used to record verses on tablets, leaves etc.
  10. What do you think of US strategy in the Middle East in general? Good? Bad? And what is it alla bout? TO me it seems to be based on creating "controlled wars" coupled with creatung maximum number of divisions.
  11. Lebanon is not a good example, it's 40% Christian. Turkey is. Of course it would be best if all of ME turned into France-like states - completely secular, with overwhelming majority of the population being either atheist, agnostic or just nominal believers not caring much about religion at all.
  12. My hierarchy looks something like that Islamist dictatorship<secular dictatorship<secular democracy Secular authocracy is of course preferable. But the process of "defeating" cannot consist solely of replacing one political elite with a different one. There must be a situation that the overwhelming majority (>95%) of people in Muslim counries actually supports democracy, freedom of religion and all other things associated with civilized societies. Why do theocracies still persist in Saudi Arabia and Iran? Why is Pakistan more theocratic now than it was 60 years ago? That's because nobody in these countries puts enough pressure for changes to start. Neither the masses nor the political elite is interested in any secularization.
  13. It NEEDS to. Political Islam (at least in it's current form) is not something akin to political Christianity in the US that organizes anti-gay protests and lobbies for creationism. Political Islam actively kills everyone who dares to oppose it - and that's how it's practiced in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan etc. That's why any coexistence with this ideology simply isn't an option. It must be smashed. Return to 1950-60s style secularism is the bare minimum that the Middle East should acheive. Back then most people did not care about religion and Islamism was limited to a very tight circle of theologians and was not a popular movement.
  14. In terms of content, it is well preserves and is certainly more authentic than the Bible. But all of t does not matter really. It's easily in the top 5 of the worst books ever written - due to both it's negative influence on mankind and horrible composition.
  15. ISIS is not a nationalist organization. They are supremacists but their ideology is not based on perceived superiority of some race or ethnicity but on supremacy of religion - or, as they say, Allah's right to govern the world with Sharia law. They take pride in how multiethnic they are - in their ranks there are fighters from all Arab countries, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Malaysia, various European countries, Africa etc. Even a few Uyghurs from China. The supreme commander of their military is a Chechen from Georgia. If they were just typical Arab nationalists, would thousands of young men from places as removed as France and China answer their call to arms? Would so many people migrate to their land with whole families, as they do now?
  16. ... and that's all? I expected a longer and more interesting exchange of ideas.
  17. Comparing ISIS to KKK is off IMHO. All of these hate groups in USA are either nationalist, racist or some mix of both. Religion plays a secondary or even tertiary role in their ideologies (and they don't claim otherwise)
  18. A lot. ISIS second in command was actually a lieutenant colonel in Iraqi intelligence prior to 2003. Governors of Tikrit and Mosul are also ex-Saddam officers and the entire Sunni insurgency is literally stuffled with ex-Saddam officers of both military and intelligence background, including ca. 15 generals. There is a hypothesis (on the verge of conspiracy theory) saying that the entire ISIS is actually an attempt of Ba'ath party men to seize power from Shias in Iraq and that all the talk about Islam and caliphate is just a cover up. Of course the true nature of their relationship is unknown.
  19. This is a thread that should cover the wider range of issue than the ISIS thread. By defeating political Islam I mean either destroying the movement completely or at least weakening it to such a degree that it is not able to attract a significant number of followers, and therefore, unable to seize power anywhere. The main discussion should be global strategy - i.e. the one that can be used on a wide scale. But discussion about "tactical" level (limited to one contry or even a single region of some country) are welcomed as well. The timescale about 2015-2050 - what to do and what not to do. We may also discuss the current "war on terror" and it's consequences - positive and negative.
  20. Philosophy is useless. Unless you absolutely love philosophy, go for physics. Why do I say philosophy is uselsss? Because not only it's teachings cannot be verified in any way but they are actually unlikely to influence the way our world works. Maybe you should do a major in political philosophy or religious studies, at least this is real tanigble stuff that influences the way entire countries work.
  21. As we all know, US higher education is ridiculously expensive, with many students having $150,000 in debts after graduation. How would you fix it and should Americans try to?
  22. That would make a fascinate topic in itself - there is a huuuge difference between what the Papacy claimed and what the doctrine of Caliphate states. The Papacy never claimed will to have absolute power over every area of the world or even Christian world. It only claimed the right to intervene in secular affairs if vital interests of the Church are in danger. And it did not claim that the pope has the sole legislative power or that there is some fixed legal system that must be followed by all people. Since Jesus was not a ruler or a judge - areas such as how to rule a government or what punishment should be prescribed for what offences - are left to us humans to decide about. Caliphate is something totally different. First, Caliph is not merely an overseer of affairs in this world. he is meant to be an absolute ruler of every part of the world. Second, in a Caliphate nobody has the right to legislate, not even Caliphs. The role of Caliphate is solely to uphold Sharia law - a strict legal system derived from the Quran and Sunnah (words and deeds of the Islamic prophet) that covers all areas of life. Sharia law is structurally similar to English common law, with Quran being the supreme (and the only) statue and words/deed of Muhammad constituting legal precedents. But sharia has a weakness that will ultimately cause it's downfall - precedents established by Muhammad cannot be overruled by anyone except Muhammad and Allah. Muhammad is dead and Allah does not seem to be willing to change sharia.
  23. Not all of Middle East is the same but with an exception of Israel, every part of it is more religiously intolerant than any part of Europe. The problem with a significant part of the ME population is that they mistake the cause of their plight for the solution. These people must realize that their main enemy is not America, Israel or Russia but their own beliefs - and that the only way to go ahead is to either reinterpret the Quran and hadiths in a way that is consistent with 21th century values, or if they can't be reinterpreted, reject them. They must realize that the world is not divided into the camp of belief (dar al Islam) and camp of disbelief (dar al kufr), but that mankind is one family and that every member of it deserves respect and equal treatment Besides these two, there is no solution. Last year's elections in Tunisia are a good sign. It shows that after just 3 years they got tired of Islamists and decided to elect a secular party instead.
  24. And what's your point exactly? That oil makes people rich? Read my post once again: "It's the result that matters - the Middle East shall turn from a poor, backward, intolerant place plagued by constant wars into a flourishing region with democracy, freedom of speech, religion, equality of men and women and a highly developed rule of law." Do the countries listed by you have any of these? Do they have democracy? Do they uphold equality of men and women? Do they let missionaries from other religions preach freely to Muslims? Do they allow Muslims to convert to other religions without fear of having their heads chopped off? Are they welcoming of any criticism towards Islam (or the way it's interpreted) or the ruling elite? No - none of the countries listed above has any of these. Besides maybe Turkey, none has. Even in more secular ME countries (Egypt, Jordan, Iraq etc.) there is widespread violence against ex-Muslims and institutionalized discrimination against religious minorities. So we may say with certainity that even if you have the most noble values enshrined in your constitution, they simply aren't going to work unless the mentality of society as a whole changes.
  25. I do think western value system is superior to any other value system that exists in this world and anyone who claims otherwise is foolish. How can value system that orders killing apostates and homosexuals, forces women to wear layers of black, baggy clothing (lest they arouse sexual feelings in men) and systemiatically persecutes religious minorities be equal to the value system that has given birth to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Most Islamic countries did not even adopt that declaration and instead they adopted their own declaration of "Islamic" human rights (the Cairo Declaration on Human RIghts in Islam) which has nothing to do with human rights and in fact is their antithesis. Moreover, as a proponent of the philosophy of natural law, I consider human rights to be eternal and unchangeable, They aren't simply a privileage given by some political elite. Discriminating against anyone on any baisis (religion, ethnicity, race, gender, sexual orientation) has always been wrong and will always remain wrong no matter what people think about it. And nobody can change that - no organization, no politician (even the most powerful one), not even God.
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