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Skeptic134

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Posts posted by Skeptic134

  1. Unsure how getting so granular helps us address an obvious and far reaching issue, but okay:

     

    Women's earnings as a percentage of men's in 2013, specifically in the occupation of accountant: 81.2%

    Share of females within the specific occupation of accounting: 62.3%

     

    SOURCE (which itself used BLS stats to aggregate): http://www.iwpr.org/publications/pubs/the-gender-wage-gap-by-occupation-and-by-race-and-ethnicity-2013/at_download/file

     

    See also:

     

    http://www.glassceiling.com/wage-gap-for-accountants-persists/

     

    Do you wish to maintain this path that getting women into better professions is enough to address what we are seeing in every profession at every income level?

    .

    FYI - The above link addresses this request, too.

     

     

    Yes, getting women into the higher paying professions will combat the gap that the OP was showing. I don't think you can disagree with that because it was a comparison of income at a percentile by gender not income in the same position with same qualifications by gender.

     

    I'm not naive enough to think there is never a difference in pay between equally qualified men and women in the same position but I believe there is much more to the gender pay gap than simple pay discrimination. I believe it is a cultural issue of promoting and presenting the same oppurtunities to females as males in certain areas and the fact that women are represented in the higher pay careers much less than men.

     

    What also can't be ignored is when you have 2 or 3 men for every women in certain professions than obviously statistically speaking it is more likely the raises and promotions will go to men all things being completely equal.

     

     

    I asked for the specific data because you made a very definitive remark that seemed to dimiss the very real quantifiable reality that even though there are more women accountants there are fewer women CPAs than men. Clearly that will have an effect on average industry pay. If the data comparing equally qualified male to female accountant pay does exist, I'd love to see it.

     

    Likewise, your latest link doesn't compare qualifications, so it isn't comparing CPAs to CPAs and entry level to entry level, so the data isn't going to properly show gender gap. If 60% of CPAs are men but only 40% of accountants are men of course the pay for male accountants will be higher on average even if there was zero discrimination.

     

    I guess my point is that instead of attacking at what IMO is the wrong end, why don't we make sure we first understand why female representation in higher paying careers is so small. Then we can go after the cultural changes to try and address the issues.

     

    Because IMO I don't think the solution for example is to simply get higher pay for the 20% of engineers that are women but instead figure out why only 20% of engineers are women in the first place.

  2. Again, entirely peripheral to the point. Even women who pass the CPA exam and become accountants are consistently making less than men with the exact same qualifications.

     

     

    You have a link to studies comparing pay of equally qualified accountants male vs female? That's very specific and much more difficult to gather that data than the much more general datasets from like the OP.

     

    And I'm not disputing that there are instances where equal pay isn't always given women with equal qualification in the same position. However, I think you have to figure out and address first why 60% of accountants are women but only 40% of CPAs are women and why only 20% of engineers are women. Because those are the reasons why the data in the OP are what they are, since it isn't comparing job to job, qualifcation to qualification.

  3. Again, it's a laudable goal to move more people into better paying jobs, but those jobs at the top end of the spectrum are quite limited in number. Sure, they're good for a small few, but there simply aren't enough to address the larger problem we're here discussing, one that affects large masses.

     

    We can nip at the margins this way, but clearly the bulbous middle cannot all be magically moved into the best paying jobs. Now, don't get me wrong. I support this as one piece of the larger puzzle, but must offer challenge to the suggestion that it's satisfactory in and of itself or for the large majority.

     

     

    By trying to create environments that foster and promote oppurtunities for women to go into all fields you wouldn't just be talking about the very few jobs at the tip top of the spectrum. It would have an effect across the entire career spectrum. As an example, currently only 20% of engineers are female, while most engineering positions probably aren't in the top 5% of pay, those jobs would represent perhaps the top 25% of pay. Thus if you start increasing oppurtunities and establishing a culture that engineering is just as much for women as men, there is a large shift that can occur.

     

    Similarly, only 33% of doctors are female and the same with lawyers.

     

    Also interesting is that 60% of accountants are female. However, only 40% of CPAs are female. For those unfamiliar with accounting, to become a CPA you need your bachelors degree and than continuing education hours almost to the point of a masters so most just get the masters degree. Then after x years experience you take 4 subject area standardized tests.

     

    Without CPA certification and accountant's pay is going to be very limited.

     

     

    What about unions? Perhaps they could offer the leverage and protections needed to solve this and negotiate on behalf of females facing these asymmetries? Agree, disagree, and why?

     

    I just don't see how this attacks the problem at the right end. For starters in general I don't believe unions are necessarily good or always work as intended. And in the case of trying to provide oppurtunities to increase the representation of women in engineering, medicine, law and reaching higher levels in accountanting a union doesn't help at all. It's not about creating laws or organizations that try to force companies to pay women more perhaps artificially, its about changing a culture from the ground up so that girls like math and science just as much as boys. And women go into these fields just as much as men and don't feel like an outsider.

     

    Afterall, how does a union help female accountants who haven't passed the CPA exam?

  4. If, for example (pulling numbers out of my ass), the top 5% of male earners are CEOs, while the top 5% of women are a mix of CEOs and doctors/lawyers because CEOs are disproportionately men, then the problem isn't that women aren't earning as much for doing the same job. It's that women are being discouraged in one way or another from getting those higher paying jobs.

     

    If that's the case, then the focus should be on opening up opportunities for women rather than equal pay for equal work (which should also be happening, but may very well do little to solve the problem depending on what the leading causes of the discrepancy are at this point).

     

    I believe this is definitely a part, perhaps majoritive part, of the problem.

  5. Given the fact that no-one will refuse a pay increase over their fellow worker, male or female, and if we don't want to create another layer of government oversight, isn't the solution simply an attitude adjustment of management and HR departments within companies or organizations which are the worst offenders ?

     

    This can be done at the individual level by a refusal to do business with the offending companies/organizations, or at the societal level, by identifying and 'shaming' those companies/organizations into reforming their pay structures. A simple 'watchdog' government department, with no disciplinary powers, could take care of this ( or would they open themselves up to lawsuits ).

     

    Both of these measures will affect their bottom line, and that is the only 'pressure' they understand and respect

     

    Absolutely. People "voting" with their wallets works, it isn't always immediate but it works. Likewise bad publicity espcially with social media works as well.

     

    And I think this goes beyond gender pay discrimination.

  6. I don't understand what you're saying here. Can you clarify?

     

     

    Actually, I did make an error in my first post, I will correct it here and use more detail.

     

    According to the links I used above, about 5% of the workforce (male and female) is at the minimum wage level, then I used your value of 70% of minimum wage workers being female to calculate that 3.5% of the entire workforce are female minimum wage workers. Further, females make up 47% of the total workforce. So, that means that .035 / .47 = .0745 or 7.5% of female workers are minimum wage and will see the pay increase. Similarly though, 2.8% of male workers will see that increase.

     

    So really, even though 7.5% of female workers will see the hypothetical $2 increase that would result in the average increasing by $.15, the change in the gap will be even less than that because some men saw the increase as well.

     

    I agree, there might also be some small increases just above minimum wage but my point was if the gap was a hypothetical $5 on average an hour right now, it decreasing to $4.85 is fairly small change in the gender gap.

  7.  

    There are existing policies and reporting requirements in place for companies that address many of these issues. There's the Fair Labor Standards Act and the Equal Pay Act and the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, as well as an update known as the Paycheck Fairness Act being proposed (and actively blocked) right now to further strengthen and close obvious loopholes in those others.

     

    Note also that it's not a challenge of "ascertaining pay discrimination" so much as it is a problem of staffing and following of existing laws.

     

    We just have to staff the review and enforcement side to analyze the data coming in and actually do something about it (precisely as the laws intended).

     

    I think too often the idea of adding more laws to fix things seems like the approach but you point out yourself it is about enforcement and thus the funding to staff the agencies etc, which costs money, perhaps lots of money.

     

    How big of a federal agency will need to be created to effectively enforce the current and potentially new laws?

     

    How will corporate cooperation be forced? Penalties? What severity?

     

    This type of approach just makes me nervous. Is a massive industry of beurocrats and lawyers going to be created that grows over time and we don't even know how effecient or effective it will be?

     

    I would suggest baby steps with this type of approach. Start with the existing laws and figure out ways to start improving enforcement gradually versus massive overhaul type adjustments, not that you are are suggesting massive immediate overhauls.

     

     

    (TBH, this isn't my favorite idea, either, but it would help so...) My response here is that if the individuals performance or aptitude or work ethic are truly that much higher, then they should be applying for a higher level position that accounts for those traits and characteristics from the start.

     

     

    But there really is that much performance difference in the same position. As an example, engineers with the same degree, same experience level and in the same position will have very different quality and quantity of work output. The one who always leaves at 5 versus the one that gets there early and leaves when something is done. The one that does what is asked versus the one that doesn't need supervision because they are self motivated. I don't think you can simply define a position as having one level of pay and assume that it would be a different position if the performance was significantly different.

     

     

    This is fine, but it also means females at a disproportionate rate lose continuity in their career path, especially if companies terminate them for needing temporary time away (whether a few days for sickness or a few months for childbirth / infirm family members). By protecting this time, females would be able to deal more effectively with the family stuff and return to work at their existing level (instead of being demoted or punished for things unrelated to performance or pushed out of the organization entirely and forced to start anew at another company). Males would benefit from this, too, but it would be more common for females and would address a core factor impacting their long-term pay potential.

     

     

    It is a cultural thing that women typically as you state are more often going to have the career interruptions. If we want a cultural shift of women taking similar career paths traditioinal of men than we should expect changes to this cultural norm as well, ie some men beginning to stay home versus be the bread winner, a family decision basically. I don't think it necessarily makes sense to expect we modify a culture in one way but then don't expect the related dynamics to change.

     

    Also, some people choose not to have children. They are making a personal choice that they accept the consequences of as well as the positive, which is focus on career. If the opposite choice is made to have children shouldn't the individual accept both the positive and negative of that decision too?

     

    I know there are plenty of instances where having children wasn't necessarily planned, but I believe that begins to tread into other issues that need to be focused on.

     

     

    In some ways, I agree, but I don't believe the affect will be as small as you think. The math is pretty straight forward. While gender pay inequalities exist at every income level, females do account for nearly 70% of all minimum wage workers. By addressing those workers at the bottom end of the spectrum the overall gender pay gap across the country would be significantly reduced and the lives of millions improved.

     

     

    Sources for my numbers:

    http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/ted_20130325.htm

    http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpswom2012.pdf

     

    I had a hard time finding average data but on average women make 78% of men. So if the average female hourly rate is $20 men would be $25.

     

    Minimum wage workers account for about 5% of the work force, and if women account for 70% of that, that means 3.5% of female workers would benefit. If the increase was $2/hr (fairly big) that would mean the average would increase by a little more than 7 cents.

     

    I suppose the argument could be made that there would be other increases to jobs slightly above minimum wage but I still just don't see significant results.

     

     

    You seem well informed on this topic, and a lot of your responses I ignored responding to because I think you nailed and I have no rebuttal.

  8.  

    • Enhance enforcement of existing discrimination and equal pay laws

     

    So this seems tough. I'm not familiar with the current enforcement level but with something as difficult to accurately ascertain as pay discrimination this might just be an invitation for frivolous law suits that only ends up funneling money to lawyers.

     

    Objectively proving pay discrimination for a specific individual can be pretty tough. And regarding equal pay laws, I really don't know how that would help. Because of the way that salary negotiation/raises work there are so many moving parts that how would you accurately determine that someone was discriminating because a new employee was a female or if they didn't negotiate as well or didn't have one or two very important skill sets of another hire? I'm sure there would be some more obvious ones but how often is discrimination obvious versus subtle?

     

    For the law to be effective I'm afraid it would nearly require draconian government oversight.

     

     

    • Make the salaries tied to specific positions more transparent (for both internal staff and external candidates), and do more to make open discussion of salaries among employees less restricted, subject to retaliation, and taboo

     

    I think this is a good idea. I've always found it interesting that corporations want you to tell them your previous salary but they typically aren't going to tell you what they pay current employees at specific positions. They might give a vague range... They want the upperhand in the negotiations and it's a way to ensure they have it. Promoting this culture would be difficult, some firms I'm sure would adopt it but there would be some that wouldn't, and in those cases people should recognize that and steer clear of those organizations.

     

     

    • Have companies conduct regular pay audits and proactively mitigate disparities unrelated to experience and performance. Monitor promotions to ensure they are unbiased

     

    So this I don't think would be efficient or effective.

     

    Adding further regulation and laws which is going to create departments and "make work" doesn't seem helpful. And cost is always passed down to the consumer anyway. Further, one size fits all solutions typically don't fit anyone. How are these new regulations going to work for companies with thousands of employees versus a company with 8 employees?

     

    And you are again faced with the near impossibility of objectively determining gender pay discrimination on a case by case basis. How can you prove performance discrepancies? And there are other things outside of experience and performance. Some employees work more hours than others even if they are salary.

     

    And how are you going to monitor promotions? Will there be an agency that oversees this or will this all be on the honor system?

     

     

    • Consider no longer allowing negotiation of salary during hiring. If you want this job, this is what it pays. You can negotiate how much is base salary and how much is equity, but not total comp amount

     

    I don't like this at all. Are annual raises going to then by standard as well, no negotiation or difference based upon aptitude or performance or work ethic? Because if they are than it is a fundamentally flawed system, and if it isn't than it defeats the point of not negotiating on the initial salary.

     

     

    • Conduct open and transparent calibration sessions when deciding on merit increases and bonuses

     

    So this seems a lot like your second point which for the most parts seems fine. Unless we are talking about instituting an agency for oversight. If this is just a cultural change of corporations to add more transparency to pay, raises, bonuses etc than I don't think it's a bad idea.

     

     

    • Improve programs for paid medical leave, extend protected maternity leave, and pass paid sick days legislation

     

    Other than maternity leave I'm not sure how this is gender related?

     

     

    • Offer childcare and early education to the families of workers and support fair scheduling practices that limit last minute shift changes and minimize perpetual on-call statuses

     

    None of this seems bad, I think it comes down to avoiding organizations that notoriously treat workers poorly though.

     

     

    • Since others have noted above women are more likely to work minimum wage jobs, we should also raise the minimum wage, including the minimum wage of restaurant and similarly tipped workers

     

    I don't see how this helps the gender pay gap. Paying people more at the lower end might provide a slight uptick in the gap since women make up the majority on this end of the spectrum, but it will be small and it will IMO miss the point. I think the point, or goal is to encourage, promote and increase the percentage of women in higher paying fields which will also decrease the women in lower paying fields.

     

     

    Hopefully it doesn't come across as me just being a contrarian. Several of the ideas are good, but some just seem to miss the mark IMO. It is a difficult thing to measure accurately and and even more difficult thing to resolve.

     

    IMO the best solution is doing what we can as early as we can. Meaning programs in schools that get girls interested in math, science and any other field that maybe traditionally was considered for men. Trying to make the cultural changes at a young age to foster the idea that females do belong in these fields.

  9. I've read an article before, I don't know of this http://www.npr.org/2011/02/14/133599768/ask-for-a-raise-most-women-hesitate was the same one, but it was the same idea.

     

    Men are more likely to ask for raises and more aggressive in salary negotiation and that when women do aggressively negotiate they are more likely to be perceived in a negative way instead of positive way versus men.

     

    Also, while the numbers are improving, women make up a small portion of high paying jobs compared to men. For doctors and lawyers, women are about 33% and for engineers, women are about 20%.

     

    Women are not going into the higher paying fields proportionally so I think that if there are two males per every female in the higher paying fields, it clearly favors men in likelihood of rasies, promotions going to men.

     

    I think that some of it is cultural. There isn't as much emphasis on females getting excited about certain studies at an early age and thus ending up with certain high paying careers.

     

    I think some of it is natural too though, and that there isn't perfectly equally interest in all subject by both genders.

     

    I think progress is being made though. I think continuing to get females interested in science and math and all studies that perhaps they weren't pushed toward decades ago while young is helping.

     

    I don't know how easy it is to quantify the gap and how meaningful some of the stats are, but I think you can't go wrong with trying to present oppurtunity as early as possible to get interested and excited in all fields.

  10. I think the gender pay gap is something that is very difficult to properly measure.

     

    Another poster made the point that you have to compare by job description.

     

    Also, by corporation. Some companies are notorious for paying more than other companies.

     

    Further, you would need to compare by performance. The best performer in the office is probably going to be paid more than your average performer in the office.

     

    Then there is years experience, education, specific skills and other potential value to the organization.

     

    IMO the data is meaningless if you simply compare all female job holders vs all male job holders.

     

    I suspect there are organizations where a "good ole boy" system is in place and the male workers are treated differently and paid better than females. But I also suspect that there are companies and organizations that try to be fair.

     

    I just don't know a feasible way to accurately measure the true gap.

  11.  

    Another diatribe filled with off topic anecdotes...

     

     

    I'll condlude with the following, as this discussion continues to get further off topic, more long winded and harder to connect the dots.

     

    Whether you can personally come up with stories of what you consider tradition and how that tradition turned out swell has little to do with a system that can objectively and consistently discern good ideas from bad ones and plausible explanations from implausible.

     

    Tradition isn't a good method... there are many ugly traditions that are the result of ignorance.

     

    Authority isn't a good method... doing something simply because another human being wants you too is dangerous.

     

    Herd mentality isn't a good method... if you are surrounded by ignorant people what is the herd going to do?

     

    And revelation isn't a good method... bad ideas come to people all the time, with much higher frequency than good ideas.

     

    I've stated this adnausem and you apparently don't get it or just want to be argumentative.

     

    Is an authority figure going to occasionally command someone to do "the right thing".... of course.

     

    Is a tradition going to occasionally be "ok"... of course.

     

    Is a herd or a revelation going to occasionally turn out "correct" ... sometimes.

     

    But how can you tell when to listen to an authority and when not too? Or do you plan to listen to all authorities, or toss a coin?

     

    How do you decide what traditions to follow? Chance and where you were born? Or will you try to use rationality and evidence to steer you?

     

     

     

    If you aren't able to objectively test and distinquish between good and bad traditions, authorities, herds and revelations than you are directionless, incapable of morality and simply a drone.

     

    And finally, defending slavery is a highly questionable path, you can try and backpedal but you directly used the words wise and compassionate to describe slavery. That's on you, not the person pointing it out.

  12.  

    There is a difference between defending something and understanding something. A doctor does not study diseases because he likes or defends disease. A person does not examine the causes of slavery because they like or want to defend slavery. Your above assumption is untrue and a little idiotic.

     

     

    Your own words:

     

     

    Tradition is often hundreds or even thousands of years old, so it is time tested. Tradition is usually based on wisdom, which is even older, and has worked for people for generations. I don't see the problem in believing that tradition is the best alternative in most situations.

     

     

    This was the start of slavery, a side effect of war, and it was originally a wise and compassionate decision -- much better than killing babies or letting them starve.

     

    First you defended tradition in general as a good reason for belief. Then you specifically defended the tradition of slavery by using the bible, an extremely questionable source of morality to somehow conclude that slavery is wise and compassionate.

     

    Offer forth whatever semantical game you like, but you were the one to call slavery wise and compassionate... tell me more about idoicy?

     

    And lets not forget your defense of tradition via the diatribe on the breakdown of family values which is leading to an apparent decrease in morality... I suppose as opposed to the morality of owning slaves.

     

     

    No. It is a very poor example as we have yet to determine a good way to handle the losers in a war situation. Slavery after war is not a good solution, but thus far no one has a better idea that works. I noticed that you didn't come up with anything, except don't have war. Good luck with making that happen.

     

    It's an amazing example because it points out complete ignorance of doing something "because" without examining what is being done.

     

    Really ashame all Germans and Japanese were enslaved and owned by Americans and British for seven years following WWII...

     

     

    And just what do you think that "objective system" would be?

     

    I think most people have offered up the obvious anwsers, specifically repeatable evidence and rational examination of said evidence.

     

     

    You mean like science journals? Dictionaries? Encyclopedias? Are they all bad "presupposed authoritative books"? Or do you mean books that you believe do not have authority? as opposed to books that you believe do have authority? This is simple bias as to beliefs.

     

    You just don't get it...

     

    Just like your comment on this being a science forum regarding the "authority" of scientist...

     

    Relativity isn't a widely supported theory because guys in lab coats had authority and told everyone you better believe it... its due to the incredible predictions made based upon the theory, the supporting evidence and the repeatability of gathering the supporting evidence.

     

     

    The OP stated that the following reasons for believing were bad, then listed those reasons. I pointed out that in each case there could be valid reasons for believing the listed items. At no time did I state that they were good, nor did I state that they were bad. Why? Because that would not be true.

     

    A lot of people in forums do this. They make an erroneous assumption about another person's post, then argue that the person is wrong, because of this erroneous assumption, and the thread dissolves into a argument that goes off topic. This is not philosophy. This is nonsense.

     

    The OP was correct, each reason listed is a bad reason for believing.

     

    Tradition is a bad reason for believing, in fact it's not a reason (requires thinking) at all.

     

    Just because occasionally something that has been done for years and some people that are drones continue and the belief has few negative results doesn't mean that doing something simply because ignorant people did it before you were born is a valid rationale.

     

    Authority is a bad reason for believing, and once again it isn't even a reason as it requires no thinking and just means being a drone.

     

    Revelation is a bad reason for believing, people have thoughts all the time that turn out to be utter crap.

     

    Herd mentality is a terrible reason for believing, and once again is not even a reason as thought is removed from the equation.

     

    Regarding nonsense, perhaps claiming slavery was the result of wisdom and compassion falls into that category.

     

     

    You could have simply questioned me if you thought that I was defending these things as always being true.

     

     

    Perhaps you could have simply acknowledge that tradition, doing something because ignorant people did it before you, is a bad reason for doing something because you get things like slavery. You instead doubled down, used a ridiculus source (bible) and defended slavery.

  13. We replicate you atom for atom so that your brain, neurons, neuron relationships are absolutely identical. We atomise you so that you're completely destroyed. Where this new human is standing, are you behind his/her eyes? Are you inside their head, like you are inside your head now? If every neuron was mapped correctly they should surely have all your memories, mannerisms and thought patterns.

     

     

    I tend to agree that consciousness is the result of the physical world, matter, more specifically our brain and neural activity.

     

    However, "inside their head now", doesn't accurately describe the situation IMO.

     

    "You" feel no different after being replicated. "You" are still "inside your head" up until your demise. Likewise, the replicated you feels no different and feels "inside it's original head" too.

     

     

    We do the exact same thing again but we don't atomise the original "you". There are now two copies of you with the exact same experience up until this moment in time. Which one of them do you experience the world through? Who's experiencing the world through the one that isn't you?

     

    "You" experience the world through them both, because both are "you". Granted at the point of replication forward the "you's" diverge. And this isn't to say that there is a collective consciousness between the two "you's" where all experiences had individually are shared in some metaphysical way.

     

    It's to say that each person feels like the original, feels normal, and continues to experience life as if nothing changed.

     

     

    My musings on the last questions have pulled up some interesting (slightly crazy ideas). At first you would of course have to experience only one of the people's lives. Which one could be decided randomly, similar to the double slit experiment with particles; when you take the measurement the particle appears in one place despite the pattern inferring that it's in two places at the same time. Now I see there being two possibilities: 1. You live out your life as the one you landed with and when you die your consciousness "jumps" back in time to the moment you split and you then get to experience the life as the other copy. 2. As in the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics you just live the life you landed in and then die.

     

     

    I don't follow any of this, randomly "landing" in a body, jumping back to the point of replication etc...

     

    I mean it's your thought experiment and pie in the sky, so it's anyone's guess but to me that doesn't make sense.

     

    If you've replicated a consciousness than there are now two consciousnesses that will experience life as if nothing has changed. That's the way I see it.

  14. Yes, but you chose an ugly emotionally laden point. It has not escaped my notice that you talk about rationality while using emotion to make your point. This does not convey a sincere honest attempt at discussion.

     

     

    Slavery is a tradition, one you have chosen to defend because of an apparent affinity for an ancient book. It's not my problem slavery is an uncomfortable or ugly tradition and one which you would perhaps rather ignore. Regarding emotion, perhaps you have an unhealthy emotional attachment to a book or idealogy?

     

    However, what is obvious is that slavery is an excellent example of why doing something simply because "that's what we do" is such a fundamentally flawed paradigm.

     

     

     

    In the US, we have thrown out many family traditions because they were old-fashioned. Instead we now have too many broken families, kids out of control, suicide rates that are double homicide rates, many people who disdain marriage, and a general breakdown in family and morality.

     

    What? If you are trying to offer examples of where/when tradition is "good" perhaps you could offer a specific one instead of generalities. Of course it would be pointless. The discussion isn't about is there one example, two examples maybe a dozen where doing something just because "that's what we do" has worked out ok; the point is that there needs to be some objective system of critical analysis of beliefs. And tradition isn't it, neither is authority, nor herd mentality nor revelation.

     

     

    Most of us try to find someone that we can trust. It could be a political leader, a religious leader, a trusted family member or friend, or maybe it is the guy with the nice smile on the News broadcast. But we find someone to trust and allow them to instruct us. For myself, I reason out what I can, but find the old traditions and wisdom valuable because it has worked for so many people for a very long time.

     

    Really? I can't speak for most people but that just isn't how I live my life. I actually can't fathom the idea of looking for someone or something to instruct me. I'm an adult, I have my own thoughts, I have my own desires and I am willing to accept responsibility for my own decisions. I thought that was what being an adult was about.

     

     

    What is it with you and the Bible -- "Ancient book of horrors"? This looks like a very emotional response. (chuckle) Try to set your emotions aside for a moment and think about it.

     

    Have you read the book? Finding solace, inspiration or morality in those pages seems a stretch. Well unless of course you cherry pick. Which defeats the point of having an authoritative book from which to as you put it, receive instruction. As you are using your own intellect to select which passages you decide are meaningful.

     

    Since it would take us off topic I don't see how too much discussion of the bible is pertinent. I believe it is sufficient to say that like authority in general, a presupposed authoritative book is equally a bad reason for belief.

     

     

    No. Evidence needs to be interpreted by thought. See gossip and spin above. Between thought and belief, belief wins. Emotion is stronger than thought. Get it right.

     

    Right... that's why science journals don't include experimental data, evidence, explanations.... it's just people talking about how they feel about a theory...

     

     

    So trusting authority would depend on how that person gained their authority. I would trust older traditions rather than newer ones. Herd mentality is always iffy and must be judged by the circumstance, and private revelation should never be ignored, but also not accepted without careful consideration.

     

    So you need to critique the authority...

    Herd mentality judged by the circumstances...

    Revelation needs to be carefully considered...

     

    That's interesting... none of those can stand on their own they all require some objective analysis...

     

    But then older traditions are better than newer ones... Which is just peculiarly as if humanity doesn't learn overtime.

     

    Anyway in regards to the OP... it now appears that you are at least conceding that authority, herd mentality, and revelation need some sorta system to measure them since they are unsufficient to stand on their own.

     

    Progress...

  15. Well, you have picked the ugliest topic that you could find to discuss tradition, but I will run with it. Slavery started thousands, maybe tens of thousands, of years ago and was caused by war. If you look in the Old Testament of the Bible, you will find references to the wars that the Jewish people were purported to have waged. In some cases, they were required to "smite" their enemy to every last man, woman, and child, but in other cases, they were allowed to take the women and children. These women and children would have been slaves.

     

     

    There are many other traditions I could have picked to make the same point, tradition... doing something because that is what has been done for years, decades, centuries is not a good reason at all. As soon as an individual stops thinking about why they do things they've stopped using perhaps one of the greatest tools of humanity, intellect and rationality. Doing simply because of "that's just what we do" or because of being instructed to whether by an old book or old person makes you a pawn to be used perhaps for evil.

     

     

    I always find it fascinating when someone defends slavery "because bible" as if using a terribly inconsisting book written by some fairly disgusting ancient men is a good reference point.

     

     

    If we are going to discuss this, we should do it honestly; so imagine two tribes going to war. The men in the losing tribe would be dead or run off, and the women, old people, children, and village would be left. What would you do with them? There are only a few choices. You can kill everyone off. You can leave them to their own devices to starve or maybe survive to come back at you in a few years, or maybe another tribe will take them, as they now have no protection, and this new tribe may become stronger than your tribe. Or you can take charge of these people.

     

    So can you take these people home, give them a nice meal and a soft bed, and all will be forgiven? I don't think so. It is more likely that someone will stab you in your sleep because you killed their brother, father, or husband. So for many years, these people will have to be subjugated to prevent them from being dangerous. This was the start of slavery, a side effect of war, and it was originally a wise and compassionate decision -- much better than killing babies or letting them starve.

     

    I knew it would get interesting!

     

    Because a book written by ignorant bronze age men says slavery is good and right you have convinced yourself that it all started out of compassion and wisdom? Wow.

     

    So why are the two tribes going to war in the first place? Why have two groups of people arrived at a point where they have only the options of slaughtering each other or taking each other as slaves? Maybe the best question to ask of this scenario is what terribly misguided beliefs and decisioins lead to the circumstances where determining which is better between death and slavery needs to be weighed.

     

    And lets not be too naive here, slavery isn't about compassion, slave labor can be pretty handy for the victorious tribe.

     

     

    If you look in Deuteronomy (the Book of Laws) in the Bible, you will find that a man is only enslaved, or owned, for seven years, and then can win his freedom. Any women or children would eventually incorporate into the family that held them, so this was not a life sentence.

     

     

    Yeah, this defense comes up often...

     

    As if somehow it makes it fine that this ancient book of horrors states (with inconsistency) that its only for seven years that these humans are owning other humans.

     

    Slavery in the last few centuries has not been caused by wars, it is about economics and greed as Pavelcherepan explained. It is also about racism. There have always been despots and perverts, who are willing to subjugate anyone that they can, but this is again about greed -- not the traditional reasons for slavery.

     

     

    Right... so slavery in recent centuries has been about racism (see tribalism) and economics (see free slave labor for the conquering tribe) and is just a perverted example of the righteous and respectable way of doing slavery...

     

     

    This must be why no one wants to get married anymore. Finding that you are in love with someone and want to spend the rest of your life with that person is a "private revelation". Instead of marrying, they "experimentally" test their relationship for five or ten years, then let it go. Of course this creates a lot of bastards, but it seems necessary. Just because families are falling apart and kids are out of control, this is no reason to forgo this testing, as we can't know until we test.

     

     

    A private revelation backed up with observable evidence; how they treat each other, talk to each other, the things they do for each other over time...

     

     

    I think you are confusing empiricism with the scientific method. Look them up.

     

    You said there are other venues for evidence, and the only one you have provided is law. Which is interesting considering that how evidence is used in "law" is called forensic science...

     

     

    I did not state that. You are making a strawman argument.

     

     

    See your previous post below...

     

    Evidence must be interpreted as to its relevance, so when we are talking evidence, we are talking thought. Emotion will always carry more weight than thought, because emotion is more valid and real.

     

    So evidence is thought... and emotion always carries more weight than thought because emotion is more valid and real...

     

     

     

    So to keep the discussion on topic... tradition is not a good basis for belief/action/idealogy/way of living life.

     

    Neither is authority, herd mentality or revelation.

     

    And if you find a source that lays claim to all four, RUN.

  16.  

    Slavery is not a tradition - it's a form of economical system and there's been many examples in history when slavery didn't exist in some nation and suddenly came to be. You can't really call that a tradition, can you?

     

     

    Of course it is a tradition. You can call it an economical system if you like but it doesn't take away that it is a tradition, owning humans and using them for free labor to accomplish something is a global tradition.

     

     

     

    From subjective point of view a private revelation is to be taken seriously and since the question is about beliefs and belief is also a subjective thing, then private revelation makes total sense.

     

    The OP was regarding good reasons to believe something and private revalation isn't...

     

    If a private revelation isn't supported by evidence and can't withstand vigorous objective examination than it is for naught.

     

     

     

    Some empirical pseudosciences, traditional herbal medicines for example. Use of any particular herb is based on empirical data. It may be incorrect and not thoroughly tested but empirical data nonetheless.

     

    So a person performing science incorrectly... that is an example where empiricism exists outside of science?

  17. 1. Tradition is often hundreds or even thousands of years old, so it is time tested. Tradition is usually based on wisdom, which is even older, and has worked for people for generations. I don't see the problem in believing that tradition is the best alternative in most situations.

     

    Like slavery?

     

     

    2. So we should not believe authority? We are in a science forum, so do you think that we should tell all of the scientists that they don't know squat? Or maybe we should just tell the ones who have degrees -- more authority -- that they don't know squat? (chuckle)

     

    It isn't the authority associated with a position or degree that is significant its all of the evidence and associated research that goes along with explanations provided by a scientist...

     

     

    3. Regarding "crowd opinion"; if I were a police officer and a large crowd of people agreed that the thief, who ran away, was a tall, thin, blond guy in his 20's, I doubt that I would go looking for a short, fat, black woman in her 50's. Crowd opinion is not always bad.

     

    See tradition...

     

     

     

    4. Every time we have a "Eureka!" moment, or when the "light comes on" in our minds, it is a private Revelation. This is learning. Not so bad.

     

    And private revelation isn't taking seriously until it can be objectively examined or experimentally tested.

     

     

     

    Science is not the only venue for evidence.

     

     

    Where does empiricism exist outside the realm of science?

     

     

    Emotion will always carry more weight than thought, because emotion is more valid and real.

     

     

    Interesting... emotion is more valid and real than empirical evidence...

  18. Another thing that people seem to think is that emotion is produced by the brain, just like thought. I seriously doubt this.

     

     

    So what do you think produces emotion? Liver, gall bladder, tonsils?

     

    Or perhaps a "soul"...

     

    And if you seriously doubt the brain has anything to do with emotion how do you respond to measured/mapped brain activity when subjects are presented "emotional stimulation"...

  19. Your OP is a very good example of what happens when "science guys" play in a philosophy forum. Science deals with "knowns" and proofs and right/wrong -- philosophy does not. Philosophy is the study of what we can know and how we know it -- or what is real and true. This means that philosophy studies the "unknowns" to see what can be learned and known about them.

     

    Considering that science is an extension of philosophy (natural philosophy) and adds to the rationale and logical base of philosophy the significance of empiricism, I think "science guys" should be more than capable of playing appropriately in a philosophy forum; the problem isn't with science, logic or rationality it's improper usage by specific individuals.

  20. What was the technology like for making recordings in those days. OK the people would have talked about it, and that might be all they could do. There were no cameras, or newspapers or TV, and no films. It definitely would be different if it happened today.

     

    Jesus selfie on instagram or it didn't happen... :P

     

    How do we know Julius Ceasar was real? You post as if first person contemporary works are unheard of from 2,000yrs ago.

    +1

    The point is that if he's a "simple carpenter's son" then he's not the Son of God and there won't be much written about him at the time.

    And there wasn't, because he wasn't.

    On the other hand, if he had been pulling miracles out of a hat then there would be rather a lot of attention focussed on him, and we would have plenty of records of that

    +1

    Jesus is simultaneously so powerful and so innocuous as to defy any argument.

     

    For those of faith that desperately want or need it to be true, that is the case.

  21. If it isn't 2000 years it is getting pretty close 1985 years is close enough.

     

    I think you misunderstood.

     

    If Jesus actually did exist than it hasn't always been 2000 years (a long time) since he existed. At some point he should have still been going around performing these miracles and drawing attention and thus there should be plenty of contemporary accounts validating his existence.

  22. Ay and there's the rub.

     

    True believer syndrome @ Wiki

     

    Good information.

     

    2000 years have past. Take what they have recorded as it is. If it isn't good enough well tough luck. You wanted it, not me.

     

    That argument just doesn't work despite that it is used often.

     

    It hasn't always been 2000 years since "Jesus did x, y and z". At one point it should have been only a few months since he turned water to wine, only a year since he cured a leper, only a decade since he was curing the blind.

     

    And yet there are no contemporary accounts from historians regarding him going around performing these miracles?

     

    And that is why the objective answer to "Was Jesus a real person?" is, there is no credible evidence to support the premise.

  23. I'm just pointing out the problem with your "evidence".

     

    "who is said to have been"...

     

    Who said it? Which I believe was Ten Oz's point... is the author of your quote merely referencing a passage of the NT?

     

    It is fallacious to use the NT as a source validating the legitimacy of the NT; its merely an authoritarian claim which is weak in comparison to an empiricial claim.


    Also, I think it is significant to understand that the more spectacular the claim the more and stronger the evidence should be to validate the claims.

     

    Hitchens put it much more eloquently, but the idea is that if you are claiming Socrates was a real person and have only circumstantial evidence to support the claim none of the ideas associated with him are diminished or become less valid or useful tools for rationalization. On the other hand, if Jesus wasn't a real historical figure than the entire religion becomes invalidated.

     

    With the stakes so high, you should be expected and should want yourself to have more than just a handful of questionable and unreliable sources.

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