hoola

if there were to be another emergent universe (101?) as a once in a trillion year event, the existing universes could experience a large transient gravity wave signal from it's big bang (or the equivalent), along with the long term increase in the dark matter forces...

as far as logic being responsible for our universe, with the "fine tuned cosmology" idea of changing any of the variables of a single constituent physical parameter and having the resultant universe no longer work, it seems that if logic came from the chaos to produce the IBH, and the IBH was the generator to produce ours, and other universes, there should be a common tie of sub-strata logic between all universes. If we could determine our algorithm-set, then we might determine the number of algorithm-sets the IBH is capable of forming, after all, there is only so much information to go around. I see a finite number of a hundred or so universes forming in what is known as "great attractors" of these finite algorithm-sets...all products of the single IBH...which came from the logic, which came the chaos, which came from the void. I further see the other 99(?) universes co-existing with ours as the missing matter that weakly interacts with ours, the dark matter. I think that could be a problem identifying dark matter if it comes from 99 distinct sources. If the IBH is still generating information, there may be another universe to be expressed with the completion of it's unique alogrithm-set in the future. If this were to happen, an increase in dark matter density could be in force in this and other universes...

Peter...seems you agree with me in principle..and here is how I see the void producing complexity....what is a void other than nothing?..It does contains one bit of information and that is that there is "only one void"....not 2 voids, not 12 voids, or a million separate voids. Do you see where I am coming from? The only label that can be attached to the original void was that there was "only one of them". Now, this is a theoretical bit of information, more of a concept of a bit than a bit, but all information is a concept in a sense... this first bit extrapolated to becoming more, going through the chaos stage, then the development of logic, ....and how the spherical point (guided by logic), had the circumference/diameter ratio that delivers PI, the engine that cranks out the maths, instead of a lot of jibberish (the chaos), as it did before the development of logic to regulate it's output...,... You seem to use the word manifest as I would use extant..seems pretty similar...

villain, I talk about the void and it's properties, as I believe the logic sprang from the void, after a gestation period in the chaos....the origin of logic being the topic, not only must there be an assessment as to it's special experiential effects on humans, but how it's general effects arranged the maths, the substructure of the physical universe... peter...I don't define the void as being extended in space-time...that by definition is space isn't it? And those extensions are the dimensions... I see void as lack of informational content...How is the word "continuim" used for void? What precise meaning do they affix that term in this usage? Is there a link to this info? And I'm not sure what you mean by the sentence..."only if it were to be unmanifest would it become useful as a fundamental theory"...

hopefully for a shorter while than the first dozen times....

I see one basic tenet of wisdom being the ability to be "not swayed" from a particular course or lifestyle you see as clearly superior, despite social or political pressures to "fall in line" with the going consensus...

Isaac Newton says the effects of gravity are instantaneous....his laws, which are extremely accurate within the realm of our discussion, require instantaneous interactions....I've dragged the conversation of off topic long enough, the topic is "can nothing not exist"...and I haven't really responded to your question....in further thinking. I think the answer is no, in that nothing can exist...which I define as a complete lack of information, and also (kinda) yes, as even in the informationless void, a concept of "there is one void" exists , but that is a concept of one, not an actual one.....so it is a weak yes...and in a technical sense, another no.. I also see that the void existed for a certain period of time before even the concept of " oneness" evolved....if I can imagine the chaos and logic and the maths evolving, why not the concepts? In this case the first concept, the concept of one ....Say there was a true emptyness and then the concept of (one) emptyness developed from that. Only later did that concept of a one emptyness evolve into a one.( numerical bit)...so the answer is still one strong no, and one weak yes, if you consider a concept of something to be information, and that the concept and actual "thing" are inseperable and originate simutaneously....which I don't...

Yes, time doesn't need to pass for a gravitational field to exist.....duly noted....what I am talking is change of gravity fields strengths....that change of strengths pulling between the two objects is faster than C, or else the orbits fail in short fashion according to Newton's Law. I still can't get past this...I am either misunderstanding the process, but I haven't heard and explanation of how I am wrong........and I do no understand where the last sentence is coming from...."everything would stop existing if we stopped to look at an individual moment in time ? Please explain...thanks hoola.. h

yes, many time the un-intelligent thing is to act according to intellectual facts only, take the Iraq war for example....the "facts" were played out to meet the needs of the intellect of a few intelligent, but unwise men and women...with exceptionly weak emotional brains ( he tried to kill my daddy )..(torture is not torture)...(WMD)...and apparently a near zero spiritual IQ...(look at the recent interviews of Donald Rumsfeld) The wise decision was G, H. W. Bush's administration to not invade in '91, as the world, and especially Iraq were better off not invading, with even a high level of actual provocation....Saddam's imvasion of a neighboring country. The intellect in very intelligent people tends to almost be a handicap to them, if they don't have the emotional or spiritual maturity to refrain from allowing the intellect from "leading them around by the nose". I know several individuals in my personal life like this.....these sorts seem to be everywhere.... in positions of power...they are fools. Literally, they are "fooled" by their own intellect. yes, tar, the YMCA is (or was) a good idea...I don't see them around, I guess they are still in some cities. I saw a YWCA the other day...I think in Pueblo, colorado, where I have just moved close to...I remember staying in one and it was $6 per night.....I think maybe they are under pressure from homeless people who have mental illness, drug/alcohol problems....of course, if we hadn't shipped so many blue collar jobs to china, we wouldn't have the homeless sub-class becoming such a real problem...but it was the "intelligent" thing to do, as that increased profits for the large corporations.

intelligence is within the realm of the more recent human mammalian brain, but there is emotional intelligence with all mammals, and spiritual intelligence with the reptilian brain and brain stem...in humans, wisdom is using all 3 brains as a triangulation to find the "truest" answer to a question..as a deeper analysis of the question is capable....

I think I see what you mean. with the 4X3=12, but we're talking fluxing gravity effects here, not a fixed mathematical complete equation...the gravity equation value is a constant re-calculation of change requiring constant communicatons between non-stationary masses..... Hawking radiation...? (I'm sure you know what that means, but as a quick review).., as virtual particle pairs are near the event horizon of a black hole...one partner of the particle pair falls through the event horizon, and one flies off, as hawking radiation. That's what I am referring to, but the pair I am referring to are separated not with gravity of the black hole, but by the fact that one particle of the pair materialzes on the wrong side of the universe/void "event horizon" ala the black hole analogy...as I see the virtual particle pairs as appearing wherever dimensionality has extended to...I would think this would be a similar energy as the hawking radiation...

but I suppose the universe would have it's "hawking radiation" of virtual particles reflected back, as one particle is liberated at the "end of universe event horizon" ....by the other one disappearing as it "falls out" of the universe... oh, that just popped up...are you asking if I need distance over time to do the 4X3=12? if so, then yes....any changes within a region, including theoretical multiplicatons frequire time to accomplish this,,,as that indicates a change of informational status...and what is the specific difference between communication and correlation in the case of orbiting bodies?

you state yourself that "gravity instantaneously has an indefinite (don't you mean definite?)effect on all mass bearing objects in space it has already travelled to....right...so you agree that the "setting up" gravity field is held at C, but a communicative relation between masses post setup happens superluminally...that is all is required to make my case . If the comm system wasn't ultra fast, orbits would be unstable, actually would never form....from what I have read on the subject of a light speed gravity effect. Whether the effects are felt due to warpage of space or some other mechanism...that is a mechanistic detail to the process and somewhat irrelevant. Actually I don't think it is "infinite" only much faster than light speed..I don't think anything is infinte within the confines of the universe.....the way I think about the void, having no size, and being infinite....it is like quantum processes, will behave in a dualistic manner, depending on how you visualize it.....it had no size, yet, it was all there was.....that it existed before the universe came about and produced the chaos, which produced logic, means that it was not governed by the strictures of the formal logic that runs things today. Is it possible to perceive things that occured before logic developed? Please straight me out on that definite/indefinite thing...thanks...as far as the dimensions always "being there" no matter where in space you measure, I agree, but i also say that the universe is not infinite, and there is a boundary to it beyond nothing, not even dimensions can go. The universe is expanding at C, yes, and the dimensions are expanding at superluminal (but not infinite), so there will never be an arrival at the boundary. That boundary is expanding at ultra speeds, but there will always be the other side it travelling into. You would have to have a ship faster than the "speed of gravity" for you to ever catch up with the dimensions, though you would catch up with the edge of the material universe pretty quickly...since it pokes along at C. As a point of reference, gravity effect, entanglement failure, electron valence shifts....electron tunneling....I have started to think of them, as equivalent speeds....perhaps not totally identical, but in the same grouping of ultra fast speeds....and with a common mechanism behind these high speeds, perhaps.......C squared or something similar. I think I read somewhere that the speed was actually calculated as some such high value....and what if a person did have a "faster than gravity" vehicle, caught up with the edge of the observable universe, then sped along till the edge of the dimensions came into "view"...could a material object exist without dimensions to support the description? Seems unlikely....seems some inviolable principle would be violated.....I would think it wise to send in a slightly faster probe to see what would occur......and observe the results safely distanced from the experiment....I vote that it would "disappear" in an energy liberation of the information (matter) contained within the probe.... resulting in an explosion as soon as it edges past the boundary, the mass energy liberated by removal of containment by dimensions...a similar idea to a matter/antimatter explosion, but with a matter/void explosion...

daniel, thanks for the explanation of ARU.....that has to do with human cognition...which is based upon logic and processors arranged in a logical fashion...but very complex and not a fundamental "thing"...and super-subjective...sure it is a logic based process, but what isn't? Peter J....."a true void would be inconceivable", .....you backed into the truth.... in that, by definition, there is nothing to conceive.......I like your "void concept" thing though, it's like you admit there is a void, but denying it's true existence, hiding it behind the term "concept"...the void is a concept., and a void....there is no difference .....doesn't mean it can't have existed at one time, or even exists exterior to our universe, or between island universes...I define void as a region with no information....again, with the "concept of oneness" as the faintest of exceptions....but enough to begin the void's evolution... I don't equate void with empty space either...space is a thing, and isn't even very empty...all sort of virtual particles whizzing around, even in the most remote deep space...a truly "empty space" would be a void, or more accurately, "informationless region" and lose the label of space completely....and your last sentence baffles me as to your reasoning behind the idea that a void could not have preceeded space...I see no alternative to this flow chart of universe construction......please explain...

(gravity may affect a particle it has already traveled to).....and that travelling may have been held at C, but to keep the orbits in their proper positions, doesn't gravity have to communicate change in strength faster than C? I'm not saying gravity isn't "already there", only that the changes communicated by this already established field system operate faster than C. Maybe gravity is the weakest of examples given....ok, what about this inflation that seems to be fairly accepted these days... Surely that is considered superluminal...if it happened even once in the history of the universe, that is the exception that proves the case...and what about tunnel diodes? Doesn't the electron disappear on one side of the barrier and re-appear on the other super luminally? The universe may be homogenous, but not be infinite... I don't really look at the issue as regards to speed of propagation, I simply say that the universe has a finite amount of information available to be expressed, and the void to fill is infinite. Why are the dimension infinite? If something exists, there must be a mechanism behind it's existence....and if it is "infinite" than it must have travelled infinitely fast, or had an infinite amount of time to "be everywhere"..

aha !!! you put your finger on it...communication can happen faster than light.......what about inflation? what about the electron's near instant speed when changing valence positions, what about symmetry breaking of entangled particles? I still think the speed of gravity is near instant, or Newtons equations don't work, curved space or not, the effective straight-line control speeds vastly exceed light speed...so dimensions are possibly faster than C....regardless of their speed, dimensions may not be infinitely long......but I would think that they are in the super-luminal category. I do think the dimensions are not infinite...the universe is composed of a finite amount of information. The void is infinite.....so there is an edge to this universe, and the dimensions...as there is only so much information to spread around. That information is increasing as the universe expands, but will always be of a finite amount...

nothing (void) has no dimensions with which to have size..dimensions are information, just like everything else....so a more accurate way of saying void, is a region without information. This is only altered slightly in that the void contains the "concept of one" as there was, in a theoretical sense, only one void....thereby a defacto content of "one theoretical bit" of information...this one bit is a dimensionless theoretical point, so doesn't violate the no dimension rule of a true void..

I see the void as an absence of measurable things with nothing to be measured and containing but one bit of information, the concept of "oneness", however, I see the "chaos" as a thing that also has no measurable attributes, not that is doesn't have them, only that they are fluxing in values to quickly to to "show up on the radar screen". So I see the void evolving to chaos, chaos evolving to logic, logic evolving to math information in conjunction with the platonic stimuli of the spherical singularity...leading eventually to the IBH (Informational Black Hole), which projects the universe holographically....I further see the IBH as having an "awareness" of it's own...a "watcher" if you will, imbedded within it's nearly limitless (aand still increasing) informational catalogue.... My first acquaintance with this concept was with a Silver Surfer comic. There was a character called "The Watcher" that was duty bound to remain true to the edict of not getting involved with the affairs of sentient life, but in one episode, broke that rule under special circumstance....I can't remember the exact details, but is another nod to the genius of Stan Lee....

actually, you or I don't "exist" in the common understanding of the language...we and everything are holographic expressions from the singularity (IBH)...however, we are that information that is projected, which does exist, and therefore, even though reality isn't completely real, it's real enough to produce interesting things. This might also provides a form of eternal life, as if you die, the information that described you is still in the IBH, although I doubt it would do you any good....like an unread book, no information expressed or observed, no you...that doesn't mean you won't live again...if the universe collapses or goes caput in a trillion years or so, and a new one is formed with the same parameters of PI, than your information could be "expressed" again in an identical life...not a parallel universe with doppelgangers, but a sequential universe with "clones"...with only one You at a time...

yes, the universe would be, and still is filling with information, some of which is gravity....but I can't make sense of what you are saying as to the "concept of ARU" as you haven't said what ARU means....please explain, thanks... edd

I see that the first digit of math proceeded from the void, as there was only ONE void...there is your seed of information. That one digit has a theoretical physical collary of the point, or sphere, which has the circumference/diameter ratio that expresses the endless string of 3.14159.... regardless of size, even if that size is the dimensionless point......that constructs all maths. That math construction goes on for trillions of years forming an Informational Black Hole ( IBH ) which projects as a hologram, our universe....

daniel, still don't know what ARU means...anyhow, as to the similarites between science and religion...they are all information. Science is information that has the underpinning of logic to allow it's physical expression, or measurement. Religion is information from the same source (IBH), but does not have logic to support it's physical manifestation. The quantum world is the middle ground of information with enough logic adherence to exist, but not enough to be of a stable condition. The Adam and Eve story is a story, and no more substantial than that, but that is not to say it has no substance at all, simply not enough to make it out of the "unsupported by logic" zone...The big bang was not an explosion, it should be titled as the "first expression", although I still use the Big Bang thing from habit, and it might be confusing as "expression" is not generally accepted as the title....in more specific details, it should be "first IBH expression", with the instantaneous appearance of the grape-sized infant-universe....and there no such thing as an "empty spot" in the universe...virtual particles see to that....although, one might think that between the virtual particles popping in and out of existence in deep space, there must be some tiny areas where there is at least some temporary loss of all energy flux lines....although with the universe being such a busy place, field wise, they must fleeting void volumes with sub-plank dimensional levels. I have thought about this before, in that if a certain area of deep space were to have a persistent "true void", that it would lead to a "small bang". I see the original void as having the properties necessary to create a universe, and if a persistent void should have enough time to expose the underlying Chaos, it might begin the same logic construction that started our universe. However, since the universe is a "very busy place" with all sorts of field lines running through it, only a brief window of construction time could be allowed, and the nascent logic would be "poisioned" by stray information fluxing through it, disrupting the proceedings...I have thought that this could be the mechanism behind the "gamma ray bursters", that seem to come from deep space with not apparent source.......as when the logic construction has time to pass a certain stage, the interruption is marked by a small explosion, of which we pick up the gamma rays from.....the longer the logic has to play itself out before poisioning, the bigger the explosion.....edd

nothing cannot not exist, because if it didn't exist, that would manifest it's existence as a description of state of nothingness...I prefer the term"void" instead of nothingness.....

certainly ! I see reality as being derived from information that was cobbled together by the conjunction of the platonic spherical structure of the singularity (it's circular cross-section having the circumference/diameter of PI), and the mathematics of that endless string of numbers eventually describing this universe, starting with the big bang...although I don't believe that they are "independent"...the spherical singularity came into existence and remained complete, but the PI is ongoing and never complete...yet they started at the same moment, as determined by logic for their continuing existence...

if you can imagine it, it is possible (to imagine it), and even then you are only a reflector with a cloudy mirror...