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Centre of a Magnet


Ant Sinclair

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Attached are two gifs(1st & 3rd image)of a magnet and iron filings showing field lines, the first gif a negative shot of the 3rd pic(2nd gif) and the second attached image a jpeg with four figures within it.

On these two gifs there appears to be a central 'spot'. Could any of the experts kindly explain what is happening at this central location?

The 2nd picture, a jpeg of four figures is how I imagine is what is happening at this central location and was wondering if a magnet could be working as some kind of 'pole-splitter'/'particle-compressor' and the magnetic field lines were energy shells/some kind of Dirac field?

Thanks in advance for any illumination on this ponder.

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Attached are two gifs(1st & 3rd image)of a magnet and iron filings showing field lines, the first gif a negative shot of the 3rd pic(2nd gif) and the second attached image a jpeg with four figures within it.

On these two gifs there appears to be a central 'spot'. Could any of the experts kindly explain what is happening at this central location?

The 2nd picture, a jpeg of four figures is how I imagine is what is happening at this central location and was wondering if a magnet could be working as some kind of 'pole-splitter'/'particle-compressor' and the magnetic field lines were energy shells/some kind of Dirac field?

Thanks in advance for any illumination on this ponder.

As far as I see it with magnetic fields . there is nothing anywhere " there " as regards a magnetic field . It is just a value , which other magnetic material respond to, and orientates themselves , so as to have a steady state . So the filings do that ,where you see them , but in the centre where there is no net field an iron filing has no way to orientate ,or anywhere to go . So there can be seen no filings . If I have it right ?

I might be horribly wrong ! , but Michael faraday tried to fathom out if fields rotated if a magnet was rotated about its long axis . He never quite completed this before he died.

 

Mike

 

Ps This I think it is like being on a hill side , with contour lines of equal height. " there is nothing there, only if you measure a hight above sea level can you tell yourself I am at 1000 ft say " You , if you want a quiet life , orientate yourself to walk along the hillside , where you are neither running off down hill going less than 1000ft, or huffing and puffing , climbing upward ,higher than 1000ft . If you feel neither of these demands , you are feeling yourself gliding along the contour lines at 1000ft. So I believe the iron filings , in their own way , ( all be it ) there are a lot of others lined up along the field lines ( equiv . Of the hillside contour lines) . Hope this does not complicate things !

Edited by Mike Smith Cosmos
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Thanks for replying Mike & Swansont, many articles on magnetism describe direction and force of magnetic fields but what are the underlying mechanics creating them, do We know whats happening at the quantum scale to create these 'magnetic shells'?

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Thanks for replying Mike & Swansont, many articles on magnetism describe direction and force of magnetic fields but what are the underlying mechanics creating them, do We know whats happening at the quantum scale to create these 'magnetic shells'?

 

Magnetic fields are what electric fields look like when there is relative motion. So magnetic fields arise when you have charges that are moving (classically, at least)

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Yes. And, of course, no...

Richard Feynman - Magnets (And 'Why' Questions): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjmtJpzoW0o

Thanks for Your reply strange, if I listened correctly to Richard Feynman He could describe interactions and effects of magnetic fields but not what they are, has nobody got a description of what they are, even today?

 

If My imaginings of what constitutes a magnetic field were correct, I think there would be density 'hot-spot' at this central location, would it be a easy task to check for this density 'hot-spot?

Edited by Ant Sinclair
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Thanks for Your reply strange, if I listened correctly to Richard Feynman He could describe interactions and effects of magnetic fields but not what they are, has nobody got a description of what they are, even today?

 

 

Should I re-post what I wrote above?

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has nobody got a description of what they are, even today?

 

We can never say what they "are"; all we can do is describe their behaviour in different ways and in different levels of detail.

 

You can get any level and accuracy of description that you want. But no one can ever tell you what they really are.

Edited by Strange
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Should I re-post what I wrote above?

 

I did read about conductors creating a mag-field when carrying a charge swansont but Iam asking about a plain old bar magnet and how it creates a mag-field.

Would It be difficult to check to see if there was a density difference in the bar magnet at its' centre?

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Should I re-post what I wrote above?

 

I did read about conductors creating a mag-field when carrying a charge swansont but Iam asking about a plain old bar magnet and how it creates a mag-field.

 

No, that's not what you asked. You asked about the nature of the field, not how a bar magnet creates a field.

 

A magnet creates a magnetic field because the atoms in them have fields, owing to unpaired electrons all having the same orientation, and the atoms can line up because of the structure of the material. A random orientation would allow the fields to cancel.

 

The electrons have a magnetic field because they have spin angular momentum (i.e. it acts like it's moving) and charge, and as I explained above, this gives a magnetic field.

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No, that's not what you asked. You asked about the nature of the field, not how a bar magnet creates a field.

 

A magnet creates a magnetic field because the atoms in them have fields, owing to unpaired electrons all having the same orientation, and the atoms can line up because of the structure of the material. A random orientation would allow the fields to cancel.

 

The electrons have a magnetic field because they have spin angular momentum (i.e. it acts like it's moving) and charge, and as I explained above, this gives a magnetic field.

How would these alligned atoms and free electrons with their spin cause magnetic fields to stack up on top of each other the way they do swansont?

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How would these alligned atoms and free electrons with their spin cause magnetic fields to stack up on top of each other the way they do swansont?

 

Because they are aligned. Fields are vectors, and combine as such.

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I'll try to find some material on that description swansont to see if it goes more in depth so thankyou for Your input.

Something that crossed My mind whilst looking at this topic was could the not-so-simple bar magnet be the key to comprehending duality, could it be that when the north/south magnetic components of a particle/wave are in close enough proximity to each other that it acts like a particle and when they are stretched apart cause the particle to take on the characteristics of a wave?

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I'll try to find some material on that description swansont to see if it goes more in depth so thankyou for Your input.

Something that crossed My mind whilst looking at this topic was could the not-so-simple bar magnet be the key to comprehending duality, could it be that when the north/south magnetic components of a particle/wave are in close enough proximity to each other that it acts like a particle and when they are stretched apart cause the particle to take on the characteristics of a wave?

 

No, that's not what's going on. Some quantum particles have no magnetic behavior, and yet behave according to the wave/particle duality.

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The neutron for one. In that it is electromagnetically neutral

 

All particles have wave particle duality. Not all particles interact with the electromagnetic force.

Ie Neutrinos.

 

http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/SpecialROWMINOS111408.html

 

Particle spin and particle charge are two different properties.

Edited by Mordred
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Below is from an article on wikipedia;

 

The existence of a neutrino mass strongly suggests the existence of a tiny neutrino magnetic moment[16] of the order of 10−19 μB, allowing the possibility that neutrinos may interact electromagnetically as well.

 

 

Below is an extract from an assistant professor from the said University;

 

Sudhanwa Patra · Siksha O Anusandhan University

 

Neutrinos can interact with gamma rays through their magnetic moment couplings.

 

Since neutrinos and gamma ray has no charge, there is no interaction between neutrinos with gamma ray at lowest order. However, neutrino being a fermion carries spin and thereby posses magnetic moment. Thus, they have tiny magnetic dipole interaction with gamma rays.

 

Depending upon the nature of neutrinos, there could be direct dipole moment interaction (with Dirac type of neutrinos) and transitional dipole moment interaction (Majorana nature of neutrinos).

 

Do We really have enough knowledge on the two mentioned particles to make such a claim, do We not exist in an Electro-Magnetic Universe?

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Do We really have enough knowledge on the two mentioned particles to make such a claim, do We not exist in an Electro-Magnetic Universe?

 

Well, we know electromagnetism exists so we do live in an electro-magnetic universe (i.e. one that include electromagnetic interactions among the fundamental forces).

 

Unless you are thinking of that "electric universe" nonsense...

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Well, we know electromagnetism exists so we do live in an electro-magnetic universe (i.e. one that include electromagnetic interactions among the fundamental forces).

 

Unless you are thinking of that "electric universe" nonsense...

Thank You for Your enlightening input strange :)

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OK, what does "north/south magnetic components of a particle/wave are in close enough proximity to each other" mean for a dipole?

 

Are the "north/south magnetic components" of an electron in "closer proximity" than for a neutrino? Or a proton?

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  • 2 weeks later...

SwansonT, I'm trying to get My head around magnetics and Iam beginning to think that the Lepton namely the Neutrino is not an elementary particle but made up of four particles.

A large central nucleus and two satellite particles orbiting at opposite poles of this much larger nucleus, the particle orbiting the northern region spinning Anti-Clockwise and the particle orbiting the southern region spinning clockwise. Are not billions of neutrinos passing through us all the time and if a structure namely a permanent magnets' were arranged in such a way that resonant e-m energy waves were being directed 'perfectly' inwards to a 'perfect' central point could this 'sink' these abundant neutrinos into this centre and create its' magnetic fields?, its' central nucleus (two halfs) being compressed/condensed creating energy fields (Dirac Fields).

The the southern/northern particles spinning as shown in the attached jpeg.

 

If the neutrino is made up of four particles, could these two halves of the central nucleus of the neutrino be the illusive mono-poles?

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Edited by Ant Sinclair
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SwansonT, I'm trying to get My head around magnetics and Iam beginning to think that the Lepton namely the Neutrino is not an elementary particle but made up of four particles.

 

I don't see the utility of taking one speculation and trying to leverage that into a much larger one. Are you going to answer my questions, or not?

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I'm not trying to lever or utilise anything swansont, In all honesty Iam trying to comprehend magnetism, by trying to 'see' what's happening in the centre of a permanent magnet I was seeking to shed LIGHT on magnetic fields/magnetism. I was advised a while back to follow My own model and to steer clear of the Standard Model as much as possible by members such as Iwonderaboutthings and others as not to 'cloud' this different angle and that's how I've played it so far, with only minimal looks at the SM for comparitive reasons.

The two questions You posed in an earlier post swansont, I presume the answers are from the SM and so I'm asking You if You could answer them for Me so maybe I and others can learn from these two questions & answers.

Attached are several jpegs of a neodymium magnet taken from inside a pc hard drive and placed under a sheet of A4 paper, fine iron fillings were sparingly sprinkled from a height of about six inches ( 150mm ), the jpegs clearly show that iron filings are building up AROUND a central 'energy' spot. I need to finish some drawings on open office draw and will then explain what I think is happening at the poles with these drawings in the next post I make on this thread.

I asked You if You could explain to Me and others the two questions You posed earlier and now ask a question of You; could what Iam seeing from the Energy Constants Model regarding Neutrinos/Magnetism be plausible?

I look forward to these answers from such a knowledgeable physicist as Yourself!


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