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Higgs field and black matter


Edgard Neuman

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Hi!

I have an idea and I wonder if it is possible or absurd :

 

What if the Higgs field depends on matter density (in a large scale) ? If the Higgs field give mass to particles, it implies that where the field is low, particles, freed from it, are relatively more affected by gravitational forces.

So it could explain the missing mass mystery : Instead of dark matter, it's just a very smooth scalar field (much smoother than gravitation), where value is the inverse of the supposed dark matter field. It would be shaped like the supposed halo of dark matter.

I think gravitational effects would be similar.

 

What do you think ?

 

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There have been various attempts to mdel the effects of drak matter by changing the way gravity works (e.g. it has slightly more effect than expected at very large distance or very large masses). MOND is the most well known of these. This seems to be what you are suggesting. From analyses I have seen in the past, even the best of these can only reduce the need for dark matter, not eliminate it completely. And since then, dark matter has been mapped more accurately using gravitational lensing and it isn't always associated with concentrations of mass (the Bullet Cluster is perhaps the most well-known example).

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The Higgs field also doesn't for all the mass. The Higgs field affects only quarks, neutrinos, electrons and W bosons. It only accounts for less than 1% of mass.

 

Take for example the proton.

 

Proton has mass

 

1.67262178 × 10^-27 kilograms

or 938.272 MEV/c^2

 

Made up of 2 up and 1 Down quark.

 

Up quark mass roughly 2.3 Mev/c^2

Down quark mass roughly 4.8 Mev/c^2

 

Add those up 9.4 Mev/c^2

 

9.4/938*100=1%.

 

The majority of the mass of the proton is the strong nuclear force

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well if the Higgs field doesn't affect photons, so my idea can't explain gravitational lenses..
I supposed that the Higgs could be above general relavity..

If Higgs boson affect mass (which is basicaly the way matter react to forces), shouldn't it affect spacetime as well.. ?

 

In fact I don't understand how the Higgs fields is related to the space time curvature, and I don't have a clear representation of what mass is.

I understand that :

- forces are effecting particles by transmitting energy : for example when a photon hit a electron, the energy conservation explain the change in the electron trajectory.

- the energy of the particles and fields : rest mass and kinetic energy, all this defines spacetime curvature

- spacetime is curved : its curvature affects inertial trajectories, (like an acceleration)

- if the Higgs fields is affecting "mass", shouldn't it affect inertial trajectories as well ?
I admit I don't know enough to be sure of anything.

What would be the effect of Higgs fields when its value is lower or higher ?

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If Higgs boson affect mass (which is basicaly the way matter react to forces), shouldn't it affect spacetime as well.. ?

It does affect spacetime because it has mass.

 

In fact I don't understand how the Higgs fields is related to the space time curvature

 

It isn't directly. It contributes to the total mass-energy of systems and therefore the degree to which they curve space-time.

 

and I don't have a clear representation of what mass is.

 

It is resistance to acceleration.

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The Higgs mechanism may or may not explain dark energy. It's influence is primarily through the vacuum equations of state.

 

See scalar modelling this is usually used when particles are in thermal equilibrium and can be described as a thermodynamic vacuum state.

 

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_state_(cosmology)

 

http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.3239

 

Higg's inflation possible dark energy

 

http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3738

http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.3755

http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.2801

If the seesaw mechanism is validated then the Higgs changes potential of influence via the seesaw Mexican hat potential.

 

This could also explain inflation and possibly dark matter via the SO(10) standard particle model.

As far as general relativity its influence would be involved in the stress energy tensor

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress%E2%80%93energy_tensor

The stress energy tensor correlates the energy density to pressure relations.

 

Or in the FLRW

 

[latex]w=\frac{\rho}{p}[/latex]

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So basically, what you're both saying, is that the Higgs particle was just introduced to explain the first burst of inflation, simply by just filling the void with energy ? (in a thermal equilibrium filled space)
I'm confused.

I understand that any particle affect space-time by its only presence. Of course, if any energy curve space-time, any particle does too. I understand that curvature is related to the energy density tensor of course.

That's not what I'm talking about here. (if the Higgs doesn't interact, and is just here to fill the vacuum, it would act just like dark matter itself).

 

But I thought the boson was supposed to interact with particles, in a way that it explain each different mass. That's what I read everywhere.

What I understood (it was explained everywhere, with plethora of goo metaphor), the Higgs particle, by its interactions, slow down particles in a way that create mass, it mathematically mean that the more dense the field is, the more other forces seams weak.

 

So if the Higgs particles create, by their interactions, the different masses of types of particles (which are different resistances to acceleration of course), different field value should create different set of masses respectively, no ?
And so, if we suppose the field is not uniform, but variable at large scale, doesn't it mean that resistance to acceleration should vary accordingly ?

In wikipedia " The Yukawa interaction is also used in the Standard Model to describe the coupling between theHiggs field and massless quark and lepton fields (i.e., the fundamental fermion particles). Through spontaneous symmetry breaking, these fermions acquire a mass proportional to the vacuum expectation value of the Higgs field."
So what if the "
vacuum expectation value" of the field is variable ?

Edited by Edgard Neuman
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You have to look at what particles specifically the Higgs has influence on.

 

 

In particle physics, the Higgs mechanism is essential to explain the generation mechanism of the property "mass" for gauge bosons.

 

"In the Standard Model, the three weak bosons gain mass through the Higgs mechanism by interacting with the Higgs field that permeates all space. Normally bosons are massless, but the W+, W−, and Z bosons have mass values around 80 GeV/c2. In gauge theory, the Higgs field induces a spontaneous symmetry breaking, where instead of the usual transverse NambuGoldstone boson, the longitudinal Higgs boson appears.

 

The simplest description of the mechanism adds a Higgs field to the Standard Model gauge theory. The symmetry breaking triggers conversion of the longitudinal field component to the Higgs boson, which interacts with itself and (at least a part of) the other fields in the theory, so as to produce mass terms for the Z and W bosons."

 

The key aspect is the electroweak symmetry breaking

 

More specifically the SU(2)*U(1) symmetry groups

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism

In GUT the electroweak force is when the coupling constants of each force which relates its the forces field strength to its kinetic energy. When the three forces unify to the electroweak force the 3 forces are indistinguishable from one another.

 

In GUT this is running of the coupling constants.

The Higgs seesaw mechanism may cause different VeV values the SM VeV is 246 GeV. However in the TeV range there is further VeV values roughly 10^19

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So basically, what you're both saying, is that the Higgs particle was just introduced to explain the first burst of inflation, simply by just filling the void with energy ?

 

No. The Higgs mechanism explains the masses of (some) particles. If it turns out to be useful in explaining inflation then that is a bonus.

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Now in SO(10) MSSM there may be different mass Higgs each will have its own VeV value. (54Higgs) seesaw II.

 

Standard model is seesaw I

This site has a very simplified way of explaining the Higgs field

 

http://profmattstrassler.com/articles-and-posts/particle-physics-basics/how-the-higgs-field-works-with-math/

 

in a way it's well done in an approximation sense

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Ok I don't understand everything but I get the idea.

So what would happen if the Higgs field is not uniform through space for some reason ? The particle is real, right ? It has been observed. So in the mess of the void, and in Feynman diagrams, it shows up. W+, W−, and Z bosons have mass because the interact with it. Not in the past, but in the reality of each space-time volume. You speak about symmetry break. We are not talking about a past event, we are talking about reals particles interactions everywhere that give them their property now. Simmetry break is not an "event", it's a different behavior in different energy density.

So if the Higgs field is not uniform, would it affect mass of particle via its effects on the W+, W−, and Z bosons ?


[Personally, I don't think the void is "empty".. I think the void is hot, and filled with matter and antimatter in nearly equal quantities, constantly interacting everywhere.. So "real" matter is just the outnumbering particle in the mess..

It removes almost all of the magic of quantum mechanic, and remove the need to create temporary "pair of particles" from nothing or the idea of converting them right from kinetic energy.. (Supposing that particles come from nowhere just because of probabilistic equation says so, is like supposing real women have 1.5 children from statistics)

And it explains also possible variations in matter antimatter density across space (because there could be more or less of both matter in antimatter in each empty volume), and also explain the energy density (because antimatter is positive energy as well and curve space-time). ]

Edited by Edgard Neuman
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The problem with the above is when a particle anti particle annihilate energy is released as the sum of the mass of both particles. This generates heat. So if this was the case the universe would not be 2.7 Kelvin. The void has no meaning in physics. QM Heinenburgs uncertainty principle sets the zero point vacuum at

 

E=1/2hv.

 

As far as the Higgs field it is uniform and it is a scalar field of value v=246 GeV. Vacuum expectation value. The weak interactions with this field via the Yukawa coupling is what sets the mass of a particle.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukawa_interaction

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The problem with the above is when a particle anti particle annihilate energy is released as the sum of the mass of both particles. This generates heat. So if this was the case the universe would not be 2.7 Kelvin. The void has no meaning in physics. QM Heinenburgs uncertainty principle sets the zero point vacuum at

 

E=1/2hv.

 

As far as the Higgs field it is uniform and it is a scalar field of value v=246 GeV. Vacuum expectation value. The weak interactions with this field via the Yukawa coupling is what sets the mass of a particle.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yukawa_interaction

Heat is the measure of average speed of particle, if the void is a gas of particle and antiparticle, what we call heat is the speed of only the particle that is real.

We would have a lot of kinetic energy in particles, a lot of kinetic energy in antiparticles, but both would equal and annihilate each other constantly.

All charges of particle and antiparticle, momentum and kinetic energy would compensate each other. Only the one particle that is without its anti-counterpart would be observable (with all its charges and kinetic momentum energies), because it would never be compensated on average. (I said "hot void" to suggest that it's full of interactions, like a gas, not with measurable heat)

Edited by Edgard Neuman
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The annihilation process is a release of kinetic energy, the process does not mean the energy sum becomes zero.

 

Both the anti particle and particle has positive energy, just opposite charge. When they annihilate the combined total energy of BOTH particles is released.

 

In essence the energy released form new particles such as photons and gauge bosons.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annihilation

 

All particle interactions contribute to temperature and pressure. In the case of matter ie solids this is negligible. Photons and other bosons are determined by its relativistic or radiation equation of state. If that equation of state exerts a pressure then it also generates temperature.

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_state_(cosmology)

 

In the case of photons and other bosons the Bose-Einstien distribution correlates the energy/blackbody temp.

 

in the case of fermions it is the Fermi Dirac statistics.

 

though optionally you can use the FLRW EoS or Gibbs law.

 

see chapter 3

 

http://www.wiese.itp.unibe.ch/lectures/universe.pdf:"Particle Physics of the Early universe" by Uwe-Jens Wiese Thermodynamics, Big bang Nucleosynthesis

Anti particles are just as REAL as its particle.

 

 

In the case of zero point energy absolute zero does not mean motion does not occur.

 

 

 

"The uncertainty principle requires every physical system to have a zero-point energy greater than the minimum of its classical potential well. This results in motion even at absolute zero. For example, liquid helium does not freeze under atmospheric pressure at any temperature because of its zero-point energy"

 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

 

The term void is meaningless in physics.

 

We already count anti particle/particles interactions in our thermodynamic calculations.

 

The key factors your missing is volume and energy density to pressure relations.

 

Virtual particle production requires energy.

Edited by Mordred
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If the Higgs field is not uniform, but has different values, then it has direction ( higher energy to lower ) and becomes a vector field.

By definition a scalar field has no direction.

 

The inflation which results from the slow roll down the 'Mexican hat' potential is a global effect.

That is why the universe looks the same in all directions and is expanding equally in all directions.

 

If the slow roll had been ( or is ) different for different areas of the universe, it would look and expand differently in different directions.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If the Higgs field is not uniform, but has different values, then it has direction ( higher energy to lower ) and becomes a vector field.

By definition a scalar field has no direction.

 

The inflation which results from the slow roll down the 'Mexican hat' potential is a global effect.

That is why the universe looks the same in all directions and is expanding equally in all directions.

 

If the slow roll had been ( or is ) different for different areas of the universe, it would look and expand differently in different directions.

I don't think that is mathematically correct.

A scalar field is a space->value function. Yes it defines a gradient field, which is a vector field. But the gradient field is not the scalar field itself.

If the field was constant, it wouldn't be not a field, it's a constant.

 

The annihilation process is a release of kinetic energy, the process does not mean the energy sum becomes zero.

 

Both the anti particle and particle has positive energy, just opposite charge. When they annihilate the combined total energy of BOTH particles is released.

 

You don't understand my idea. The void is fill with particles and antiparticles. The annihilation, as you know it, is a totally reversible interaction : a high energy photon can split into a particle and an antiparticle. So the photons created are interacting in some way to recreate matter and antimatter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pair_production

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiparticle#Particle-antiparticle_annihilation

 

"This opens the way for virtual pair production or annihilation in which a one particle quantum state may fluctuate into a two particle state and back. These processes are important in the vacuum state and renormalization of a quantum field theory. It also opens the way for neutral particle mixing through processes such as the one pictured here, which is a complicated example of mass renormalization."

 

You speak about real particles. I speak about the void. All you say about particles and temperature is true, but it doesn't remove the possibility of it being only supernumerary matter in a matter/antimatter soup at equilibrium state.

If the void is filled with matter and antimatter, it could be in a state where Pair production rate equals particle-antiparticle annihilation rate.

Like in a gas, the equilibrium state (of matter and antimatter, NOT the one you talk about) would depend on the density (the density of different type of particles/antiparticles and the average speed), but we would still call it void, because there would exactly as much matter as antimatter. The sum of impulsion and anti-impulsion would also be 0. So it would be what we call void : you can't take a particle of it, without seeing a antiparticle left alone (or simply take any charge without seeing its anti-counter part alone).

 

Now, if you add for instance, a single electron with an electric charge and a kinetic charge, it would interact, but its charges wouldn't disappear and would stay emerging.

(I'm looking for an image : a single male in a room filled with married couple. If the male pair with a woman, the male she was with become a new single male).

It would also permit to separate charges across space, (for instance impulsion and electric charge), and even maybe explain the quantum strangeness (because impulsion would travel as a wave in the soup, but matter would only get absorbed once). Particles, constantly interacting, wouldn't travel at all : only supernumerary charges would (like in a newton pendulum).

 

In this idea, maybe that the gradient of the energy field would simply be.. gravitational field. Matter would react differently from antimatter because of the gradient of density would imply a gradient of density of antimatter as well.

In that case, we would observe that antimatter have a positive energy, but a negative acceleration toward gravitational field.

If you really understand it, it's quite convincing.

 

If you still don't understand, here is a list of phenomenon, with my idea compared to the classic quantum interpretation

- the void

classic interpretation : a quantum mess where pairs of particle antiparticle can appear from nowhere for a short amount of time and disappear right after to nowhere, and never exist long enough to break the conservation energy rule, for some reason (No, you can't justify this by the Heisenberg equation, which is supposed to be a descriptive theory of things. We observe the law, the law doesn't justify itself)

my idea : a filled soup of matter and antimatter at equilibrium state. No need of "virtual" anything. particle/antiparticles are here the whole time. They all interact with each other constantly, given the fact that anhiliation is a fully reversible interaction : opposites direction photons interact with each other into matter antimatter pairs all the time

 

- a real particle :

classic interpretation : a wave/particle thing travelling according to a probability field acting like a "wave" carrying charges, and sometime interacting at some random position.

my idea : a collection of supernumerary charges in the void soup (a particle with no antiparticle counterpart). Each charge is constantly carried by different particles/antiparticles interacting, even splited in parts across space.

But each type of charge exist in symmetrical way in "positive" and "negative" with complement each other, a supernumerary charge remains supernumerary on average, above the equilibrium.

Of course, when supernumerary charges come into a stable structure somewhere (like a photon absorbed by an atom) the supernumerary charge are not observable anywhere else not anymore (with no need of quantum probability magics).

 

- photon :

classic interpretation : a particle/wave moving freely.

my idea : a supernumerary charge of momentum, which can be spited and shared. (of course it still travel from neighbor to neighbor so it has a finite speed)

 

All the "real" particle would behave the same in the two interpretation, so you can still talk about "heat" and other macro statistical measures of particles.

Edited by Edgard Neuman
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