[leugi]

I was reading that diluting 35%H2O2 in distilled water to make it 3.5% is safe to drink for beneficial reasons, do you believe that this is true, has anybody tested this on animals?

[John Cuthber]

No
It's an unusually silly thing to do.
Why bother poisoning animals to prove it?

[leugi]

John Cuthber, on 28 January 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

No
It's an unusually silly thing to do.
Why bother poisoning animals to prove it?

but they wouldn't become poisoned, is it only if you drink it without diluting in distilled water that you become poisoned, here is the website which i read.
http://educate-yours...de17jul03.shtml

[Fuzzwood]

H2O2 is a poison, we even have a specific mechanism to deal with the radicals that most likely form called katalase. Why else would we have a defense mechanism against oxygen radicals if they weren't harmful?

People who claim that some substance magically cures cancer have NO idea what they are talking about, as cancer is a definition of many a number of growths.

This post has been edited by Fuzzwood: 28 January 2012 - 07:29 PM

[leugi]

Fuzzwood, on 28 January 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

H2O2 is a poison, we even have a specific mechanism to deal with the radicals that most likely form called katalase. Why else would we have a defense mechanism against oxygen radicals if they weren't harmful?

did you bother to read the article, it explains everything better than i ever will

[John Cuthber]

leugi, on 28 January 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

but they wouldn't become poisoned, is it only if you drink it without diluting in distilled water that you become poisoned, here is the website which i read.
http://educate-yours...de17jul03.shtml

That website is almost entirely composed of nonsense.
Highlights include
"Hydrogen peroxide should really be called hydrogen dioxide." says who?

"It is this hydrogen peroxide in rainwater that makes it so much more effective than tap water when given to plants." Again- says who?

" In nature oxygen (02) consists of two atoms--a very stable combination. A single atom of oxygen, however, is very reactive and is referred to as a free radical. " Ordinary O2- the stuff we breathe is also a free radical.

"The ability of our cells to produce hydrogen peroxide is essential for life. H202 is not some undesirable by-product or toxin, but instead a basic requirement for good health."
There's a time and a place for everything. A pair of feet is very helpful to our life and health, but not if they are stuck in the middle of our face.
The reason the body produces H2O2 is precisely because it is very toxic.

I was particularly amused by this one
"A 3.5% solution can be made quite easily by first pouring 1 ounce of 35% H202 into a pint jar. To this add 11 ounces of distilled water. This will make 12 ounces of 3.5% H202. "
They can't even work out how to divide by 10.
There are plenty of other examples of complete bollocks, but I got bored.

hydrogen peroxide isn't very stable. It is easily broken down into oxygen and water.
The body produces an enzyme called catalase specially to do this. The enzyme is there to protect us from the H2O2 that is produced by some reactions in the body.
It's very good at its job. Hydrogen peroxide in the bloodstream is destroyed very quickly- far too fast for it to have any beneficial effect.
However it's important to realise that if you decompose a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide it suddenly gives off a lot of heat and a lot of gas.
If it does that in the stomach you will be in major trouble.

[leugi]

John Cuthber, on 28 January 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

That website is almost entirely composed of nonsense.
Highlights include
"Hydrogen peroxide should really be called hydrogen dioxide." says who?

"It is this hydrogen peroxide in rainwater that makes it so much more effective than tap water when given to plants." Again- says who?

" In nature oxygen (02) consists of two atoms--a very stable combination. A single atom of oxygen, however, is very reactive and is referred to as a free radical. " Ordinary O2- the stuff we breathe is also a free radical.

"The ability of our cells to produce hydrogen peroxide is essential for life. H202 is not some undesirable by-product or toxin, but instead a basic requirement for good health."
There's a time and a place for everything. A pair of feet is very helpful to our life and health, but not if they are stuck in the middle of our face.
The reason the body produces H2O2 is precisely because it is very toxic.

I was particularly amused by this one
"A 3.5% solution can be made quite easily by first pouring 1 ounce of 35% H202 into a pint jar. To this add 11 ounces of distilled water. This will make 12 ounces of 3.5% H202. "
They can't even work out how to divide by 10.
There are plenty of other examples of complete bollocks, but I got bored.

hydrogen peroxide isn't very stable. It is easily broken down into oxygen and water.
The body produces an enzyme called catalase specially to do this. The enzyme is there to protect us from the H2O2 that is produced by some reactions in the body.
It's very good at its job. Hydrogen peroxide in the bloodstream is destroyed very quickly- far too fast for it to have any beneficial effect.
However it's important to realise that if you decompose a 3% solution of hydrogen peroxide it suddenly gives off a lot of heat and a lot of gas.
If it does that in the stomach you will be in major trouble.

well i wouldn't say that it is true or false, but how will we ever know if we don't test it. maybe because companies can't make any money of it, can that be true.

[Fuzzwood]

Of course, here we go again with the company-conspiracy. You just destroyed any kind of credibility you might have had.

[John Cuthber]

First, it has been tested.
second that page is trying to make money (by selling a book).
Third, imagine that H2O2 works for some condition- say prostate caner since that's one of the examples they cite.
I could look up how much the UK government spends on treating prostate cancer and how much of a loss to the economy that illness causes.
If some magic cure would treat that then there would be a huge financial incentive for the government to use the stuff.
It's possible that no company would make much money directly from the research, but there would be a lot of money saved- well in excess of that needed to fund the testing.

So, would you like to explain why you are favouring the opinion of a site that can't do simple arithmetic over the combined wisdom of the existing research?

Oh, BTW, if you want to repeat their "experiment" don't bother with buying a glass eye dropper bottle. The glass is alkaline and will decompose the peroxide quite quickly (which, of course, means that they have been using cold water and getting results. Do you plan to patent using water, diluted with water, as a cure all?)

[leugi]

John Cuthber, on 28 January 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

First, it has been tested.
second that page is trying to make money (by selling a book).
Third, imagine that H2O2 works for some condition- say prostate caner since that's one of the examples they cite.
I could look up how much the UK government spends on treating prostate cancer and how much of a loss to the economy that illness causes.
If some magic cure would treat that then there would be a huge financial incentive for the government to use the stuff.
It's possible that no company would make much money directly from the research, but there would be a lot of money saved- well in excess of that needed to fund the testing.

So, would you like to explain why you are favouring the opinion of a site that can't do simple arithmetic over the combined wisdom of the existing research?

Oh, BTW, if you want to repeat their "experiment" don't bother with buying a glass eye dropper bottle. The glass is alkaline and will decompose the peroxide quite quickly (which, of course, means that they have been using cold water and getting results. Do you plan to patent using water, diluted with water, as a cure all?)

hey, i don't want to favor anybody, all i want is to know people's opinions, and learn from that, what do you think about using regular 3% hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash.

[John Cuthber]

I think you would be better asking a doctor than surfing the net.

[leugi]

John Cuthber, on 28 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I think you would be better asking a doctor than surfing the net.

i disagree, doctors only know what they know, in the net i can get multiple opinions.

This post has been edited by leugi: 28 January 2012 - 08:41 PM

[John Cuthber]

leugi, on 28 January 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

i disagree, doctors only know what they know, in the net i can get multiple opinions.

Including the utter dross you cited earlier.

[Suxamethonium]

Haha, Ever looked up DHMO? Such sites are probably more credible than these H₂O₂ miracle cure sites. They use exaggerated accurate information to betray water (yes... H₂O) in a very negative light (enough so that people try to 'ban' it). Never trust the internet blindly.

[leugi]

Suxamethonium, on 28 January 2012 - 10:31 PM, said:

Haha, Ever looked up DHMO? Such sites are probably more credible than these H₂O₂ miracle cure sites. They use exaggerated accurate information to betray water (yes... H₂O) in a very negative light (enough so that people try to 'ban' it). Never trust the internet blindly.

i did not, that is why i asked, but i am still not convinced that h2o2 is a poison, maybe i need to do more research but most of the evidence in the internet is very vague therefore is kind of hard to know what to trust anymore.

[leugi]

i have been doing a lot more research and from what understand now free radicals can cause some damage in certain parts of our body, but in the other hand, antioxidants are not necessary in excessive amounts, so therefore the best thing to do for a healthy body would be to try to keep everything balanced and not try to overdo the effect of any of them. i guess i just thought that it would be good because it can help fight bacteria and there is a lack of oxygen now days, but i guess a good nutrition would be just as good.

This post has been edited by leugi: 29 January 2012 - 08:38 AM

[Suxamethonium]

Oh yes.... let's inhale irritating oxidisers... I wont get pulmonary edema...

Here is an MSDS for a 3% solution in water. You will notice "Harmful if swallowed" under the ingestion subheading in the toxicological profile.
http://www.anachemia...nglish/4988.pdf

Also, the body does utilise hydrogen peroxide inside special vesicles in cells (and the hydrogen peroixe specially made for this purpose). It is used in conjunction with high acidity and special peptides designed to destroy proteins of the cell that are no longer needed or by immune cells to destroy pathogens- DESTROY PROTEIN and MADE AS REQUIRED being the important part. Otherwise, hydrogen peroxide (and radical) byproducts are quickly broken down and sequested by various mechanisms of the body to protect it from such uncontrolled damage. If you understand that H₂O₂ is used to destroy cells, why put it in your body to flow around and kill whatever cells it happens to encounter? There is no reason for it to target any one item in particular.

Also, hydrogen peroxide can react with Fe²⁺, such as that in hemoglobin in the blood, catalysing the decomposition into water and the HO^. and HOO^. radicals... These are particularly harmful to cells. We synthesis our own anti-oxidants like glutathione, however once used up your body needs time to resynthesis its stores, and during this time the radicals can wreak havoc. (The toxicology of panadol (acetaminophen, tylenol) overdose is actually caused by this same principle/mechanism (i.e. on overdoes, a reactive metabolite is produced reducing glutathione levels which then lets the molecule destroy DNA and proteins)).

Finally to indicate the damge radicals can cause, adding concentrated sulfuric acid to 30% hydrogen peroxide and heating makes a solution commonly referred to as "pirrana solution". Radicals are produced so readily, that carbon and organic residues can be disolved off in seconds (seen as a rapid liberation of carbon dioxide leaving the solution), I would imagine placing a fresh cutting from a living plant in this solution would have the same effect (although, would probs take longer)- actually I might try this next time im in the lab.

At best these sites take information and present it in a biased way. At worst they just make it up, or deliberately ignore important evidence.

[leugi]

Suxamethonium, on 29 January 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Oh yes.... let's inhale irritating oxidisers... I wont get pulmonary edema...

Here is an MSDS for a 3% solution in water. You will notice "Harmful if swallowed" under the ingestion subheading in the toxicological profile.
http://www.anachemia...nglish/4988.pdf

Also, the body does utilise hydrogen peroxide inside special vesicles in cells (and the hydrogen peroixe specially made for this purpose). It is used in conjunction with high acidity and special peptides designed to destroy proteins of the cell that are no longer needed or by immune cells to destroy pathogens- DESTROY PROTEIN and MADE AS REQUIRED being the important part. Otherwise, hydrogen peroxide (and radical) byproducts are quickly broken down and sequested by various mechanisms of the body to protect it from such uncontrolled damage. If you understand that H₂O₂ is used to destroy cells, why put it in your body to flow around and kill whatever cells it happens to encounter? There is no reason for it to target any one item in particular.

Also, hydrogen peroxide can react with Fe²⁺, such as that in hemoglobin in the blood, catalysing the decomposition into water and the HO^. and HOO^. radicals... These are particularly harmful to cells. We synthesis our own anti-oxidants like glutathione, however once used up your body needs time to resynthesis its stores, and during this time the radicals can wreak havoc. (The toxicology of panadol (acetaminophen, tylenol) overdose is actually caused by this same principle/mechanism (i.e. on overdoes, a reactive metabolite is produced reducing glutathione levels which then lets the molecule destroy DNA and proteins)).

Finally to indicate the damge radicals can cause, adding concentrated sulfuric acid to 30% hydrogen peroxide and heating makes a solution commonly referred to as "pirrana solution". Radicals are produced so readily, that carbon and organic residues can be disolved off in seconds (seen as a rapid liberation of carbon dioxide leaving the solution), I would imagine placing a fresh cutting from a living plant in this solution would have the same effect (although, would probs take longer)- actually I might try this next time im in the lab.

At best these sites take information and present it in a biased way. At worst they just make it up, or deliberately ignore important evidence.

yea, i did a lot more research and most websites say that radicals can be dangerous because of the reasons that you gave above, i just wanted to find out because radicals can also kill bacteria and therefore can be regarded as beneficial in some cases, but i understand now why it is unsafe to ingest now, i guess the best way we can fight disease is to stick with a natural nutrition, everything made by humans always seems to break the natural balance.

[Suxamethonium]

Well, yes natural nutrition is important, but that is not to discredit medication. Naturally managing things like epilepsy or psycosis would be very strenuous to try and achieve. Medication is fragile in the sense that its use needs to be well understood (that is supposed to be the reason it is prescribed). Drugs like methotrexate for example are being formulated and have potential to treat certain types of cancer. As more is understood, better medicines are being developed, and better methods of delivery and reducing side effects is ever increasing. We seem to be continuely moving further from the direction of an 'attack everything and hope the disease dies before the patient' approach to a much more selective 'seek and destroy'.

[leugi]

Suxamethonium, on 29 January 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Well, yes natural nutrition is important, but that is not to discredit medication. Naturally managing things like epilepsy or psycosis would be very strenuous to try and achieve. Medication is fragile in the sense that its use needs to be well understood (that is supposed to be the reason it is prescribed). Drugs like methotrexate for example are being formulated and have potential to treat certain types of cancer. As more is understood, better medicines are being developed, and better methods of delivery and reducing side effects is ever increasing. We seem to be continuely moving further from the direction of an 'attack everything and hope the disease dies before the patient' approach to a much more selective 'seek and destroy'.

but normal people should not be taking any sort of vitamins pills or medicines, nor going to the hospitals for checkups every few months, the hospitals should be for people with pathological diseases not for healthy people, therefore it sometimes makes me sad that going to the hospital has become such a normal thing for people now day, and even though i don't want to ever visit a hospital i know that i probably will some day, so sometimes i think do we really need medicine or does medicine need us.