[mitch1224]

I am making an immortality-based RPG game with some friends. I would also prefer to have scientific basis for future events in game.

In the storyline, the city of Atlantis is an incredibly advanced civilization using a massive hovercraft capable of carrying the entire city of Atlantis around the Mediterranean(going to get basis for that later). They also had terraformed a planet around the Sirius stars. They used regular grass and trees added to the planet. This was in 4000 BCE.

Would the plants start evolving to better absorb the light of the star?
If yes, what color?
If they did start evolving, how far would they get by the late 21st century?
Lets just say the color trait was dominant for that part.


Thank you for taking your time to read this.

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 27 January 2012 - 10:51 PM, said:

I am making an immortality-based RPG game with some friends. I would also prefer to have scientific basis for future events in game.

Ok, I like my science fiction to at least be consistent if not accurate...

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In the storyline, the city of Atlantis is an incredibly advanced civilization using a massive hovercraft capable of carrying the entire city of Atlantis around the Mediterranean(going to get basis for that later). They also had terraformed a planet around the Sirius stars. They used regular grass and trees added to the planet. This was in 4000 BCE.

I would love to hear how that is justified with science.

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Would the plants start evolving to better absorb the light of the star?
If yes, what color?

No, not in 4000 years...

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If they did start evolving, how far would they get by the late 21st century?
Lets just say the color trait was dominant for that part.

No place, not enough time for something as basic as the pigment for photosynthesis to change significantly.

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Thank you for taking your time to read this.

No problemo... One thing to remember, if i remember correctly, Sirius radiates a huge amount of UV radiation, more than it does visible light...

[mitch1224]

Okay, thank you.

How much UV radiation?

Also, if a mutation for color happened to occurr right after the terraformation(?), what percent would be green and the other color (purple is what I figured out after thinking it through) after 6000 years?

Thank you.

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 27 January 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Okay, thank you.

How much UV radiation?

http://www.solstatio...ars/sirius2.htm

http://www.exoplanet...us/english.html

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Also, if a mutation for color happened to occurr right after the terraformation(?), what percent would be green and the other color (purple is what I figured out after thinking it through) after 6000 years?

Thank you.

The pigment chlorophyll is so basic to complex plants it's difficult to really speculate on this, the probability is almost certainly close to zero this could change in any reasonable amount of time, secondary pigments would be more likely and the bluer light of Sirius would probably select for the color red not purple... even for this 6,000 years is improbable... it's doubtful any earth plant could survive the UV flux at the surface of any planet orbiting Sirius close enough to have liquid water.

[mitch1224]

Moontanman, on 27 January 2012 - 11:53 PM, said:

http://www.solstatio...ars/sirius2.htm

http://www.exoplanet...us/english.html




The pigment chlorophyll is so basic to complex plants it's difficult to really speculate on this, the probability is almost certainly close to zero this could change in any reasonable amount of time, secondary pigments would be more likely and the bluer light of Sirius would probably select for the color red not purple... even for this 6,000 years is improbable... it's doubtful any earth plant could survive the UV flux at the surface of any planet orbiting Sirius close enough to have liquid water.

It is an abandoned colony from what I have decided so far, so that works out well. As for the plants, maybe they could be native. If that even would be impossible, then theres always a forest of dead animals. Also, Sirius is a binary system, and the second star died and shed its outer layers. Which one of the two sends out the radiation?

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 27 January 2012 - 11:59 PM, said:

It is an abandoned colony from what I have decided so far, so that works out well. As for the plants, maybe they could be native. If that even would be impossible, then theres always a forest of dead animals. Also, Sirius is a binary system, and the second star died and shed its outer layers. Which one of the two sends out the radiation?

So i am guessing you didn't bother to read either of the links? Sirius is the one that sends out the UV... Sirius isn't old enough to have evolved complex life forms, it's less than a half billion years old but in fantasy you can do anything. It's really the back story that counts, the details are just a back drop for the story, even in a video game... but red absorbs blue light, it's why red algae is red, sunlight filtered by sea water is blue shifted, go deep enough and blood looks green because there is no red light to reflect to your eyes... Don't worry about being scientifically accurate, just be consistent, moving Atlantis to a planet around Sirius pretty much blows science out of the water so go with what you want, just don't be contradictory and you get my respect...

[mitch1224]

Moontanman, on 28 January 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

So i am guessing you didn't bother to read either of the links? Sirius is the one that sends out the UV... Sirius isn't old enough to have evolved complex life forms, it's less than a half billion years old but in fantasy you can do anything. It's really the back story that counts, the details are just a back drop for the story, even in a video game... but red absorbs blue light, it's why red algae is red, sunlight filtered by sea water is blue shifted, go deep enough and blood looks green because there is no red light to reflect to your eyes... Don't worry about being scientifically accurate, just be consistent, moving Atlantis to a planet around Sirius pretty much blows science out of the water so go with what you want, just don't be contradictory and you get my respect...

Have not read them yet, no. And then a planet with a ton of different ores and dead forests surrounding an abandoned Atlantean colony could look incredible.

Also, Atlantis wasnt moved. It was a colony made by Atlantis, using a controlled wormhole portal that was somehow still functioning after Atlantis crashed/sank.
Einstein-Rosenberg bridge, I believe its called?
And if you want, I can send you what I have of the game proposal. Most of it is untyped, and just in my head, but I can send you what I have.

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 28 January 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

Have not read them yet, no. And then a planet with a ton of different ores and dead forests surrounding an abandoned Atlantean colony could look incredible.

Also, Atlantis wasnt moved. It was a colony made by Atlantis, using a controlled wormhole portal that was somehow still functioning after Atlantis crashed/sank.
Einstein-Rosenberg bridge, I believe its called?
And if you want, I can send you what I have of the game proposal. Most of it is untyped, and just in my head, but I can send you what I have.

I'd be interested in seeing it but I am not anyone of any authority so i am not any better to judge than you are. As for dead forests, how did they grow to start with? it's interesting to note that Sirius B is a white dwarf orbiting at about the distance of Uranus in our system. In relatively recent past, as cosmic times goes, it was a star even more massive than Sirius so it would have been even hotter and bluer. When it went off the main sequence it would have no doubt destroyed any planets of either star but it raises another possibility. It ejected many giga tons of metals back into space, it makes Sirius 7.5 times as metal rich as our sun, metals, in astronomy anything heavier than helium is a metal but in this case it means actual heavy elements but the dying star would have no doubt driven away lighter elements so you might get a planet from the debris that was huge, dense, with high gravity and still have a reasonably thin atmosphere, a planet the size of Uranus or Neptune but with maybe a few dozen bar atmosphere of mostly hydrogen many times the gravity of earth, oceans, hydrogen atmosphere, it might make for some interesting bio chemistry... ignoring of course how young the planet would be but hey it's your universe, if you want it.. it can happen...

[mitch1224]

Moontanman, on 28 January 2012 - 01:51 AM, said:

I'd be interested in seeing it but I am not anyone of any authority so i am not any better to judge than you are. As for dead forests, how did they grow to start with? it's interesting to note that Sirius B is a white dwarf orbiting at about the distance of Uranus in our system. In relatively recent past, as cosmic times goes, it was a star even more massive than Sirius so it would have been even hotter and bluer. When it went off the main sequence it would have no doubt destroyed any planets of either star but it raises another possibility. It ejected many giga tons of metals back into space, it makes Sirius 7.5 times as metal rich as our sun, metals, in astronomy anything heavier than helium is a metal but in this case it means actual heavy elements but the dying star would have no doubt driven away lighter elements so you might get a planet from the debris that was huge, dense, with high gravity and still have a reasonably thin atmosphere, a planet the size of Uranus or Neptune but with maybe a few dozen bar atmosphere of mostly hydrogen many times the gravity of earth, oceans, hydrogen atmosphere, it might make for some interesting bio chemistry... ignoring of course how young the planet would be but hey it's your universe, if you want it.. it can happen...

They wouldnt be grown much at all by any means. Also, Sirius B would be a problem, yes. The thing about Sirius is its symbolic. In Egyptian times, when Atlantis will sink (probably flood the Mediterranean, so ill have to make an entire map of the Mediterranean adjusted to a lower sea level), Sirius was known as Sopdet, and was used to signal the flooding of the Nile. The Nile's flooding will be part of what covers Atlantis when it sinks. Sirius also is used in many cultures as many different symbolic things. Its symbolic use is very good. Thats why I am hesitant to change it.

Also, it could always be a rogue planet caught by Sirius A/B's gravity recently after B shed its outer layers. It would then end up gathering lots of the metal in its own gravity, correct? Unlikely, but there's always a possibility.

I attached the game proposal. There's some flaws, and I'll have to ignore most of the Stone age's history, but can't have everything, you know?

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 28 January 2012 - 02:03 AM, said:

They wouldnt be grown much at all by any means. Also, Sirius B would be a problem, yes. The thing about Sirius is its symbolic. In Egyptian times, when Atlantis will sink (probably flood the Mediterranean, so ill have to make an entire map of the Mediterranean adjusted to a lower sea level), Sirius was known as Sopdet, and was used to signal the flooding of the Nile. The Nile's flooding will be part of what covers Atlantis when it sinks. Sirius also is used in many cultures as many different symbolic things. Its symbolic use is very good. Thats why I am hesitant to change it.

Also, it could always be a rogue planet caught by Sirius A/B's gravity recently after B shed its outer layers. It would then end up gathering lots of the metal in its own gravity, correct? Unlikely, but there's always a possibility.

I attached the game proposal. There's some flaws, and I'll have to ignore most of the Stone age's history, but can't have everything, you know?

It's doubtful anything from Earth could grow at all in the UV flux of Sirius, but ignore that, you can propose and unusually thick ozone layer or something if it becomes important.

I do understand the symbolism and it's cool, ignore the facts about Sirius, go with bluer light than our sun and no one will notice if the game is good. I've read weirder books that were great, try Larry Niven's "The Integral Trees" for a real mind blower.

http://en.wikipedia...._Integral_Trees

[mitch1224]

Moontanman, on 28 January 2012 - 02:16 AM, said:

It's doubtful anything from Earth could grow at all in the UV flux of Sirius, but ignore that, you can propose and unusually thick ozone layer or something if it becomes important.

I do understand the symbolism and it's cool, ignore the facts about Sirius, go with bluer light than our sun and no one will notice if the game is good. I've read weirder books that were great, try Larry Niven's "The Integral Trees" for a real mind blower.

http://en.wikipedia...._Integral_Trees

Is Ultraviolet affected by magnetic fields? If so, very powerful magnetic field that allows growth. And thanks for all your help. Can I refer to you for help when Im stuck on something or something of the sort?

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 28 January 2012 - 02:25 AM, said:

Is Ultraviolet affected by magnetic fields? If so, very powerful magnetic field that allows growth. And thanks for all your help. Can I refer to you for help when Im stuck on something or something of the sort?

No electromagnetic radiation is not affected by magnetic fields. No problem, any time.... just ask. A planet around Sirius, if it had a magnetic field, should have awesome auroras...

[mitch1224]

Moontanman, on 28 January 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

No electromagnetic radiation is not affected by magnetic fields. No problem, any time.... just ask. A planet around Sirius, if it had a magnetic field, should have awesome auroras...

Great. Thank you.

And magnetic field anyways. Make it look better, more exotic in a way. Thank you for all your help.

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 28 January 2012 - 02:42 AM, said:

Great. Thank you.

And magnetic field anyways. Make it look better, more exotic in a way. Thank you for all your help.

I think it might be reasonable to say the night sky of such a planet, considering the particle radiation Sirius would emit, would be alive with auroras from pole to pole, it would be like the sky was on fire...

This post has been edited by Moontanman: 28 January 2012 - 02:52 AM

[Edtharan]

What if the planet around Sirus was a super Earth with a much thinker atmosphere and a thinker Ozone layer?

As Ozone is what helps protect the Earth from UV, then a thinker layer would help protect against more UV. As this planet is supposed to be terraformed, then the terraformers could have created the thicker ozone layer (and the means to maintain it too).

[mitch1224]

Edtharan, on 28 January 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

What if the planet around Sirus was a super Earth with a much thinker atmosphere and a thinker Ozone layer?

As Ozone is what helps protect the Earth from UV, then a thinker layer would help protect against more UV. As this planet is supposed to be terraformed, then the terraformers could have created the thicker ozone layer (and the means to maintain it too).

That'd be one big ozone layer. Ozone also causes cancer, I believe, same as Ultraviolet. It's atmosphere could have several layers, maybe?
The ground layer is a mix of gases able to sustain plant life.
The cloud layers will be different gases that mutate and/or poison life when it rains.
The upper layers would be some sort of engineered chemical that stops all UV rays.
The highest layer would be mostly hydrogen and other gases thrown out by Sirius.

The life would still have died out, but it would be striking to see a planet like that.
Ill have to make up a reason for the gases to stay in their separate layers, however.

[Edtharan]

mitch1224, on 28 January 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

That'd be one big ozone layer. Ozone also causes cancer, I believe, same as Ultraviolet. It's atmosphere could have several layers, maybe?
The ground layer is a mix of gases able to sustain plant life.
The cloud layers will be different gases that mutate and/or poison life when it rains.
The upper layers would be some sort of engineered chemical that stops all UV rays.
The highest layer would be mostly hydrogen and other gases thrown out by Sirius.

The life would still have died out, but it would be striking to see a planet like that.
Ill have to make up a reason for the gases to stay in their separate layers, however.

Yes, Ozone is quite toxic. On Earth, one of the major components of smog is ozone. However, Ozone does not have to be near the ground (and cause smog). It can be high in the atmosphere and this is what blocks the UV from the sun.

There are also other chemicals that could conceivably block UV light better than ozone (I don't know enough to actually be able tot ell you what they could be - if anyone here has ideas?) and if the planet was terraformed, then it would be conceivable that the terrformers could have used the other chemicals..

[mitch1224]

Edtharan, on 29 January 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Yes, Ozone is quite toxic. On Earth, one of the major components of smog is ozone. However, Ozone does not have to be near the ground (and cause smog). It can be high in the atmosphere and this is what blocks the UV from the sun.

There are also other chemicals that could conceivably block UV light better than ozone (I don't know enough to actually be able tot ell you what they could be - if anyone here has ideas?) and if the planet was terraformed, then it would be conceivable that the terrformers could have used the other chemicals..

Yes. Thats what Im thinking. The chemicals would be confined into layers by weight, which means that most would be lighter than air. Ill just make an alloy or two, maybe. It is possible that several metals could mix and create a gas, correct? Then that heavy gas would be mixed with hydrogen in a chemical reaction. Ill have to make up stuff at this point, but Im sure its possible...
I still like the powerful magnetic field idea. Magnesium-Cobalt liquid core be good for some incredibly powerful magnetic fields? It could draw meteors of metal out of the sky even, that much force.
Itd be smaller than earth, however.

[Moontanman]

mitch1224, on 29 January 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

Yes. Thats what Im thinking. The chemicals would be confined into layers by weight, which means that most would be lighter than air. Ill just make an alloy or two, maybe. It is possible that several metals could mix and create a gas, correct? Then that heavy gas would be mixed with hydrogen in a chemical reaction. Ill have to make up stuff at this point, but Im sure its possible...
I still like the powerful magnetic field idea. Magnesium-Cobalt liquid core be good for some incredibly powerful magnetic fields? It could draw meteors of metal out of the sky even, that much force.
Itd be smaller than earth, however.

Actually no, first of all a planets core is composed of mostly iron due to it's density and other chemical reactions as well, magnesium would not find it's way into the core and cobalt is so rare it wouldn't be abundant enough to be significant even if chemical processes allowed it to sink to the core. Also magnetic fields would not be that strong, even a neutron star or magnetar would have to be quite close to have that much magnetic effect and it's gravity would far out weigh any magnetic effects.

Again decide on what you want the back drop to be, don't worry about absolute scientific accuracy, it's a back story to a video game. Just make it internally consistent and concentrate on the story's Characters and plot...

[mitch1224]

Moontanman, on 29 January 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

Actually no, first of all a planets core is composed of mostly iron due to it's density and other chemical reactions as well, magnesium would not find it's way into the core and cobalt is so rare it wouldn't be abundant enough to be significant even if chemical processes allowed it to sink to the core. Also magnetic fields would not be that strong, even a neutron star or magnetar would have to be quite close to have that much magnetic effect and it's gravity would far out weigh any magnetic effects.

Again decide on what you want the back drop to be, don't worry about absolute scientific accuracy, it's a back story to a video game. Just make it internally consistent and concentrate on the story's Characters and plot...

I know, but im getting things like this for use to explain odd things happening. If it was a rogue planet that was caught in Sirius A's gravity after Sirius B's collapse (for lack of a better word), then what would it likely be made of? Also, what sort of things would likely make up the planet?

Anyways, you said Sirius B sent out tons of heavy metals, so the planet would be covered with metal and craters regardless, right?

Since itll be a silver alloy that is used for immortality, then post-cataclysm humanity (thats when they discover the Einstein-Rosenberg bridge to the planet[we really need to name the planet. Since this is atlantis, we need to figure out what their language would be closest to]) would be able to expand and become immortal. Possibly. Im still thinking that through.

This post has been edited by mitch1224: 29 January 2012 - 05:19 PM