[JustinW]

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I was thinking the same thing, actually. It's one thing to have a change in government, but it's another to force people out of their homes so others can move in.

You also have to ask yourselves if they were there by legal right before they were removed, or if they were only there by religious right. If they weren't on land that is legally occupied by Palestine, then it would have been well within Israels rights to move them off. With as many enemies that surround Israel it is illogical to think that they shouldn't control their borders with the utmost care.

[StringJunky]

JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

You also have to ask yourselves if they were there by legal right before they were removed, or if they were only there by religious right. If they weren't on land that is legally occupied by Palestine, then it would have been well within Israels rights to move them off. With as many enemies that surround Israel it is illogical to think that they shouldn't control their borders with the utmost care.

ydoaps and I were referring to the period prior to the formation of Israel.in 1948. One needs to have a good knowledge of the history of the area, the holocaust, British colonialism and post-war politics before you can jump in with both feet with opinions on the Israeli- Palestinian conflict. The Israelis are only in Israel by 'religious right', so you can't use that argument for Arabs...the Arabs are/were indigenous to the area.

This post has been edited by StringJunky: 27 January 2012 - 07:28 PM

[JustinW]

Sorry, I't seems I did misread that last post. I think it was this that I still had in mind to adress.

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The few Palestinians I've talked to thusfar talk of homes that are legally owned by Palestinians being invaded by Israeli settlers and the IDF defends the squatting settlers rather than arresting them. These cases can be challenged in court, but the courts are (as said by Palestinians) set up against the Palestinians as the required proof of ownership for the court is almost impossible to give. Then there are cases of Israel demolishing legally owned Palestinian houses to build settler villages.

As for the history of the region, I might not know it with great detail but I have a common grasp of the historical events that surround the region. I even have these fancy little time lines I can reffer back to if necessary.

Another thing you are inaccurate on is Israelis being there by religious rights. Religious rights or not, the Brittish are the ones who opened the door on that one. Israel won it's independance which gave them legal rights. Now the only arguements that Palestinians can use to force their way in are religious rights.

This post has been edited by JustinW: 27 January 2012 - 08:27 PM

[Moontanman]

JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 08:21 PM, said:

Sorry, I't seems I did misread that last post. I think it was this that I still had in mind to adress.

As for the history of the region, I might not know it with great detail but I have a common grasp of the historical events that surround the region. I even have these fancy little time lines I can reffer back to if necessary.

Another thing you are inaccurate on is Israelis being there by religious rights. Religious rights or not, the Brittish are the ones who opened the door on that one. Israel won it's independance which gave them legal rights. Now the only arguements that Palestinians can use to force their way in are religious rights.

I think you are correct your comment was on topic as far as it goes but think of this, the land now called Israel was not empty, People lived there, real flesh and blood people who were kicked out of their homes and off their land because they were not Jews. You use the term "force their way in" that is just wrong, they were already there! Their homes were bulldozed and people were killed. If it was not due to religion then why were these people made to leave when the Israel took over the land, what was it if not due to religion? At first Israel kicked Christians out too until they realized their survival depended on the support Christian nations like the good old US of A... It's mostly American Christian fundamentalists who claim Israel has claim to be there there by the word of god....

I often wonder how these jack asses who think Israel has the right to exist because god said so would feel if people of my ancestry made claim that the Great Spirit gives us title to the continental United States.... and we started kicking them out of their homes... hell the bastards used biological warfare against us... but we weren't really human, we were just godless savages....

This post has been edited by Moontanman: 27 January 2012 - 08:43 PM

[JustinW]

I think we are getting two different time frames mixed up. When talking about the Israeli placement there it is not so simple. Jews have been in that area for well over 2000 years. The legal placement of them by Brittain then by their declaring of Independance and subsequential war that followed did push a lot of people out of their homes. It may have not been right but those are the consequences of war.

When talking about the recent removal of palestinians I just suggested that their legal claim needed to be looked at within relation to where they build. This makes sense to me in as far as Israel holding their borders against those who believe them to be an enemy that needs to be wipe off the face of the earth. Palestinians feel that they have a right to own the holy land as does Israelis, but Israel holds a legal claim at present and Palestine does not. I'm not saying that religion isn't the main cause of this conflict, just that when looked at from an objective view point, the legal right takes precident over religious rights.

What happened in the past up to Israel gaining a legal claim is irrelevant when discussing the realities of todays conflict from a legal and defensive standpoint. If we give Israel back to Palestine on the basis that it used to be owned by Palestinians, why wouldn't we do this for every other part of the world. By that logic the US would in fact not just go back to the Native Americans, but would partly go back to the Spanish, French, Brittish, and anyone else who stepped foot on and claimed a piece throughout history. It's illogical.



By the way those so called jack asses who say that Israel is there because God wants them to be there are irrelevant also. As I've stated before they did declare their independance and fight a war to win it. That is where their legal claim comes into play.

This post has been edited by JustinW: 27 January 2012 - 09:42 PM

[Moontanman]

JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 09:38 PM, said:

I think we are getting two different time frames mixed up. When talking about the Israeli placement there it is not so simple. Jews have been in that area for well over 2000 years. The legal placement of them by Brittain then by their declaring of Independance and subsequential war that followed did push a lot of people out of their homes. It may have not been right but those are the consequences of war.

When talking about the recent removal of palestinians I just suggested that their legal claim needed to be looked at within relation to where they build. This makes sense to me in as far as Israel holding their borders against those who believe them to be an enemy that needs to be wipe off the face of the earth. Palestinians feel that they have a right to own the holy land as does Israelis, but Israel holds a legal claim at present and Palestine does not. I'm not saying that religion isn't the main cause of this conflict, just that when looked at from an objective view point, the legal right takes precident over religious rights.

What happened in the past up to Israel gaining a legal claim is irrelevant when discussing the realities of todays conflict from a legal and defensive standpoint. If we give Israel back to Palestine on the basis that it used to be owned by Palestinians, why wouldn't we do this for every other part of the world. By that logic the US would in fact not just go back to the Native Americans, but would partly go back to the Spanish, French, Brittish, and anyone else who stepped foot on and claimed a piece throughout history. It's illogical.

Logically, North America would go back to the Native Americans, not the bloody British, French, Spaniards or anyone else from Europe but 500 years is a bit long to be retroactive. I wasn't suggesting this was a logical course of action but taking away land or a country just because you are a bigger bastard than the other guy is not the way I personally would like to see the world go.

It's most certainly not the way i want to see the US go and the USA has at least shown that to be the way we assert our political influence (sometimes), we helped kick Germany out of the rest of Europe, we helped kick Japan out of the rest of the Pacific we kicked Iraq out of Kuwait, although i think it is disingenuous to say it was totally because we wanted to help them but be that as it may either people have real personal rights or they don't and might makes right, which is it? If might makes right then it's time to haul out the big penis shaped missiles and start waving them at each other again....

Which is it? Does it depend on who the aggressor is? If it's one of our back door buddies then they get to do what ever they want but if it's someone we don't like then we jump in and defend the little guy? One or the damn other, we need to be consistent, far too long we supported the governments who did what we wanted and screw the people but we claim that people should have rights, does it only apply to Americans or is it a goal for the whole world to respect human rights? It's time to take a side i think....

The nearly blind support Israel has received over the years has been insane, hell they attacked on of our ships and we let it go, they killed American sailors and no it was not an accident, do you think if Iran sank one of our ships we would let it go even if it was an accident? I am not looking for Israel to be destroyed or anything silly like that but the idea they can do no wrong is plain bullshit and the idea that they have the right to Palestine due to the word of god is an insult to humanity...

On the other hand Palestinians are no prize either, suicide bombers, constant missile strikes, the inflexibility of stupidly thinking that Allah will destroy Israel, both sides act like a bunch of unruly children pointing and crying the other side is the bad guys, they both have deep faults and it's time we recognized that... It's time they recognized that or just get it over with and let the biggest bastard kill everyone.... hell maybe it is preordained that part of the world will be the catalyst for global war one more time but as Einstein said WW4 will be fought with sticks...

[JustinW]

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but taking away land or a country just because you are a bigger bastard than the other guy is not the way I personally would like to see the world go.

I know but until the last couple of centuries this is how it's been. I think probably we have seen the last of that sort of conquer and claim warfare, at least for a while.

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the idea that they have the right to Palestine due to the word of god is an insult to humanity...

Like I've said before, they declared their independance and fought a war to keep it. If that isn't the way you gain legal rights to be your own country then we should be speaking in Brittish accents right now.

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Einstein said WW4 will be fought with sticks...

Very true, once III kicks off it is doubtful that cooler heads will prevail.


Look, I'm not saying that Israel isn't at fault on some matters. But I choose to support Israel for a number of reasons. First is their legal claim through their own war of independance. Another is the fact that yes, they are our allies in a region that the others we have are shaky at best. Another would be for the fact that Israel only atttacks in defense of itself or with a reasonable amount of threat to justify attack. And another would be that most of their enemies are our own as well. I could probably hash out a few more if I wasn't in a hurry.

[Moontanman]

JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

I know but until the last couple of centuries this is how it's been. I think probably we have seen the last of that sort of conquer and claim warfare, at least for a while.

The formation of Israel was conquer and claim, not a battle for independence...

[JustinW]

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The formation of Israel was conquer and claim, not a battle for independence...

Actually it was more like claim and defend.