[ydoaPs]

Or he may as well have:

[iNow]

Here it is written:


http://jonathanturle...o-to-education/

Quote

It’s no wonder President Obama wants every kid to go to college,” said the former Pennsylvania senator. “The indoctrination that occurs in American universities is one of the keys to the left holding and maintaining power in America. And it is indoctrination. If it was the other way around, the ACLU would be out there making sure that there wasn’t one penny of government dollars going to colleges and universities, right? . . . If they taught Judeo-Christian principles in those colleges and universities, they would be stripped of every dollar. If they teach radical secular ideology, they get all the government support that they can possibly give them. Because you know 62 percent of children who enter college with a faith conviction leave without it.

<...>

I’ll bet you there are people in this room who give money to colleges and universities who are undermining the very principles of our country every single day by indoctrinating kids with left-wing ideology. And you continue to give to these colleges and universities. Let me have a suggestion: Stop it.

This post has been edited by iNow: 27 January 2012 - 01:50 AM

[zapatos]

Wow. I am so disillusioned with my country right now.

[CaptainPanic]

So, science as a whole is now "left wing indoctrination" according to a presidential candidate? WTF?

I am lost for words.

[ydoaPs]

 CaptainPanic, on 27 January 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

So, science as a whole is now "left wing indoctrination" according to a presidential candidate? WTF?

I am lost for words.

If you believe Steven Colbert, reality has a well known liberal bias.

[ydoaPs]

Also, there's apparently context to the remarks. I don't know if the study and the speech are related, however.

[Moontanman]

The religious fundementalists are on the run, they know they are loosing ground and they..... love it! They have a persecution complex, they want to be persecuted, they think it's what they should expect in the evil end times The feeling of the evil atheist humanists and false religions persecuting them is what the bible teaches them to expect (at least in their interpretation of it) and they believe their fight to oppose it is a holy thing demanded by god and that they alone will escape the horrible end when the rapture gathers them up directly into heaven just as the final conflict between god and the devil takes place.

The rest of us get to be killed in horrible ways as the atomic Holocaust is orchestrated by the Devil, in fact the reason they are so supportive of the existence of Israel is intimately connected with the belief that the anti Christ will only come into power after Israel destroys the Muslim mosque that sits on the old Jewish Temple which will bring about the reign of the anti Christ and Armageddon... These people are far more dangerous than most other Christians can conceive of and tolerated because they are after all... you guessed it... Christians

Manipulative power hungry politicians like Santorum are using this to take advantage of these people for his own political gains. They are all despicable human beings taking advantage of ignorance instead of trying to do something about it, in fact they rely on the ignorance of these people to survive... All of the republican candidates at least pay lip service to this crock of Horse Feathers, either they are lairs, willfully ignorant or stupid...

This post has been edited by Moontanman: 27 January 2012 - 03:48 PM

[Phi for All]

It's all a ploy to privatize education. Corporate lobbyists are pushing to abolish state-run schools. Imagine how powerful you could be if your company could control financial markets, the media AND you could also shape the education of your future employees and customers?

Turning our schools into extensions of certain Christian doctrines seems like the first step towards making us just like the Islamic countries we denounce as being run by religious fanatics. If the US becomes a religious superpower, all wars will be like the War on Terror, unwinnable by force because the enemy is an idea that grows the more you try to burn it down.

[imatfaal]

to be honest with speeches like Santorum's above, many of the candidates coming out against abortion for rape victims, the barely concealed homophobia and anti-immigrant stance, and now the prospect of corporate run schools this set of republican primaries is beginning to look like some sort of weird fulfilment of poe's law

[JustinW]

Quote

The religious fundementalists are on the run, they know they are loosing ground and they..... love it! They have a persecution complex, they want to be persecuted, they think it's what they should expect in the evil end times The feeling of the evil atheist humanists and false religions persecuting them is what the bible teaches them to expect (at least in their interpretation of it) and they believe their fight to oppose it is a holy thing demanded by god and that they alone will escape the horrible end when the rapture gathers them up directly into heaven just as the final conflict between god and the devil takes place.

The rest of us get to be killed in horrible ways as the atomic Holocaust is orchestrated by the Devil, in fact the reason they are so supportive of the existence of Israel is intimately connected with the belief that the anti Christ will only come into power after Israel destroys the Muslim mosque that sits on the old Jewish Temple which will bring about the reign of the anti Christ and Armageddon... These people are far more dangerous than most other Christians can conceive of and tolerated because they are after all... you guessed it... Christians

WTF are you talking about Moontanman? You're really trying to spread the message today aren't you. It's funny that this little end of days BS that you keep preaching can be translated into most any religion practiced around the world.

Quote

It's all a ploy to privatize education. Corporate lobbyists are pushing to abolish state-run schools. Imagine how powerful you could be if your company could control financial markets, the media AND you could also shape the education of your future employees and customers?

You may be right on a certain level Phi. But I don't think the overall intent of conservatives are to abolish state run education. It wouldn't make sense to do so. I have heard some decent examples by people who feel that a certain amount of indoctrination is going on. But on the other hand hand I don't believe that it is a left wing conspiracy to get people's children to fall in line with their ideology either. All I can say is that if it is a ploy to privatization, it is not a very good one.

[Moontanman]

 JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

WTF are you talking about Moontanman? You're really trying to spread the message today aren't you. It's funny that this little end of days BS that you keep preaching can be translated into most any religion practiced around the world.

You are correct, it is indeed a part of many fundamentalist movements in Islam, Hinduism, Seiks, the list is long and depressing.... But in the US it is a movement with some real power, all you have to do is look at the winners the republicans have trotted out for president...

Quote

You may be right on a certain level Phi. But I don't think the overall intent of conservatives are to abolish state run education. It wouldn't make sense to do so. I have heard some decent examples by people who feel that a certain amount of indoctrination is going on. But on the other hand hand I don't believe that it is a left wing conspiracy to get people's children to fall in line with their ideology either. All I can say is that if it is a ploy to privatization, it is not a very good one.

I see it as more of an effort to inject religious fundamentalism into our schools curriculum...

[John Cuthber]

"Because you know 62 percent of children who enter college with a faith conviction leave without it."
Good to see that they are learning.

I wonder what the comparable figure is for children entering nursery school and faith in Father Christmas.

[JustinW]

Quote

You are correct, it is indeed a part of many fundamentalist movements in Islam, Hinduism, Seiks, the list is long and depressing.... But in the US it is a movement with some real power, all you have to do is look at the winners the republicans have trotted out for president...

We could also look at the current president of Iran. It seems I remember him talking about such a battle between good and evil only within the last couple of years.

Quote

I see it as more of an effort to inject religious fundamentalism into our schools curriculum...

I haven't heard anyone talk about such. The big issue with them has been the teaching of things that they consider to be ideological and arguable without teaching the oppostion's side as well. But on a college level I can see your point about what Santorum said. He tried connecting left wing ideology as teaching against a certain faith in colleges which I believe was a fallicy.

This post has been edited by JustinW: 27 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

[Phi for All]

 JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

You may be right on a certain level Phi. But I don't think the overall intent of conservatives are to abolish state run education. It wouldn't make sense to do so. I have heard some decent examples by people who feel that a certain amount of indoctrination is going on. But on the other hand hand I don't believe that it is a left wing conspiracy to get people's children to fall in line with their ideology either. All I can say is that if it is a ploy to privatization, it is not a very good one.

Whether Santorum is working towards a religious agenda, a political or a corporate one, all sides (except the taxpayer side) would prosper if tax money for education went only to private companies. Conservative/liberal issues are dwarfed by the corporate quest for the profit to be made from the state and national education budgets.




As far as its efficacy as a ploy, imagine this: you're a huge multinational company like Bain Capitol, founded in 1984 by Mitt Romney, among others. You lobby your ass off and you get Congress to pass a bill that allows you to own all your other companies, like Burger King, Burlington Coat Factory, The Weather Channel, Dominoes Pizza, and Hospital Corporation of America (the largest private operator of health care facilities in the world), and in addition, you now get to own media companies as well (including their news formats), which had been previously prohibited because of its obvious conflict of interest with regards to advertising and journalistic integrity. So you buy Clear Channel Communications, 850 radio stations reaching 110M listeners each week, many Christian format stations among your holdings.

You lobby some more and now you get to own schools and universities with tuitions paid by taxpayers. You happen to own Houghton-Mifflin Publishing and Staples, so you got text books and office supplies covered. Your Dunkin' Donuts and Burger Kings will go on campus, of course.

And now all you have to do is market a Bain loan for college freshmen to attend a Bain school to learn how to work in a Bain job to pay off their Bain loans so they can shop in Bain stores. Why is this NOT a good ploy? You just figured a way to bring back indentured servitude, profit more, control your market, control your personnel, and get half the voters to actually approve of your methodology. All because you use the unfair advantage your media ownership gives you to influence voters to get the laws regulating your corporation relaxed to the point where they overlook an ever-increasing amount of conflicts of interest and unfair advantage you're gradually accumulating.

[CharonY]

Without education, people tend to have a limited perspective. In fact, I believe that one of the most important aspects of colleges is not necessarily to convey technical skills, but to show students that there is a whole world out there that we do not really know much about. To show that our preconceptions and anything we learned are but a limited facet of what is really going on. That what we think and believe is quite possibly wrong or at the very least very narrow-minded. That we should be open to new concepts.
All these are of course anathema to rigid, self-contained belief structures. Moreover, it makes people much more easy to control. If you grew up in such a self-contained environments it is much more easy to accept "facts" without evidence.

[Moontanman]

 JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

We could also look at the current president of Iran. It seems I remember him talking about such a battle between good and evil only within the last couple of years.

How does someone else holding these extreme beliefs make it ok for others to do so?

Quote

I haven't heard anyone talk about such. The big issue with them has been the teaching of things that they consider to be ideological and arguable without teaching the oppostion's side as well. But on a college level I can see your point about what Santorum said. He tried connecting left wing ideology as teaching against a certain faith in colleges which I believe was a fallicy.

Do you live in the USA? Local governments have been fighting tooth and toenail to teach creationism as real science in schools for as long as I've been aware of what going to school means, I can still remember having to stand in a corner because i refused to accept Noah's ark as real, in public school!

The latest big case, the ID supporters were so sure it would pass court scrutiny because the Judge was a conservative Christian but they had there asses handed to them because in the words of the judge they were dishonest and lied.

http://en.wikipedia....School_District

But this stuff goes on in a small scale all over the place, locally where i live it's a constant battle to keep this creation crap out of the schools... The big creationist gurus actually give classes in how to argue this stuff in front of school boards and generally the school board members don't have a clue as to what real science is and apes giving birth to humans or cats having puppies is something they aren't prepared to argue...

And then there is this....

This post has been edited by Moontanman: 27 January 2012 - 08:32 PM

[JustinW]

Quote

And now all you have to do is market a Bain loan for college freshmen to attend a Bain school to learn how to work in a Bain job to pay off their Bain loans so they can shop in Bain stores. Why is this NOT a good ploy? You just figured a way to bring back indentured servitude, profit more, control your market, control your personnel, and get half the voters to actually approve of your methodology. All because you use the unfair advantage your media ownership gives you to influence voters to get the laws regulating your corporation relaxed to the point where they overlook an ever-increasing amount of conflicts of interest and unfair advantage you're gradually accumulating.

You've got a good point Phi, but that is a reach. I could see it a little more clearly if Mitt Romney were the one to say these things (which he probably is). So the basic idea you have with this is, Santorum and others like him are speaking out against ideology being taught in public schools so they can take over public schools and be one step closer to owning and controling the world. Hmmm. . . You don't think that they (and others like them) might have a lagitamate arguement to at least some small degree?

Quote

Without education, people tend to have a limited perspective. In fact, I believe that one of the most important aspects of colleges is not necessarily to convey technical skills, but to show students that there is a whole world out there that we do not really know much about. To show that our preconceptions and anything we learned are but a limited facet of what is really going on. That what we think and believe is quite possibly wrong or at the very least very narrow-minded. That we should be open to new concepts.

I think this is probably a more rational explanation than what Santorum was trying to make it seem like. And yes, a more rational explanation than what Phi made it seem like also.

Quote

How does someone else holding these extreme beliefs make it ok for others to do so?

Sorry but every time I've read this stuff from you it has always been about the ploy of America to start this war between good and evil. I don't by it and also don't think it is as rampant in the US as you would have everyone believe.

Quote

Do you live in the USA? Local governments have been fighting tooth and toenail to teach creationism as real science in schools for as long as I've been aware of what going to school means

I may not be as old as you, but I don't remember any big debates on the issue of TEACHING creationism in schools. In fact the most I've heard about have been from athiests protesting the saying of "In God we trust" in the National Anthum, or giving children a moment of silence to pray and such. But all in all this sort of thing is natural from both sides of the arguement at a local level. You want your kids to learn things that are fundamentally important to you, don't you. All we can do is hope that reasoning prevails in the matter and that our public schools stay unbiased about those kinds of issues.

[Moontanman]

 JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Sorry but every time I've read this stuff from you it has always been about the ploy of America to start this war between good and evil. I don't by it and also don't think it is as rampant in the US as you would have everyone believe.

I have never said that, it's religion in america that feels that way and is working toward that goal not the US government, but they do influence the US government.

Quote

I may not be as old as you, but I don't remember any big debates on the issue of TEACHING creationism in schools.

Did you not read the link i gave? Do i have to google more, the supreme court had to rule on this at least once, local courts have dealt with this many times

Quote

In fact the most I've heard about have been from athiests protesting the saying of "In God we trust" in the National Anthum, or giving children a moment of silence to pray and such.

I'm just stunned by your naivete' the teaching of creationism is not just opposed by atheists...

Quote

But all in all this sort of thing is natural from both sides of the arguement at a local level. You want your kids to learn things that are fundamentally important to you, don't you. All we can do is hope that reasoning prevails in the matter and that our public schools stay unbiased about those kinds of issues.

You hope our public schools remain unbiased about those kind of issues, what exactly do you mean by that?

[JustinW]

Quote

Did you not read the link i gave? Do i have to google more, the supreme court had to rule on this at least once, local courts have dealt with this many times

As well as from the otherside too.



It's not that I said it was just opposed by atheists. Like I said, it was just the most opposition that I've heard has been from athiests. I don't really care who believes what or doesn't believe what. I would argue against teaching creationism for the simple fact that it is not rellevant to the basic studies that a child learns in school. Also and probably most of all because public schools do not need to pick and chose the winners and losers of arguments based on opinion rather than factual consensus. Things like the teaching and applying of religion need to be taught at home, not in the class room.

Quote

You hope our public schools remain unbiased about those kind of issues, what exactly do you mean by that?

I just went into a long spill (which I just erased) with examples and stories about what is being taught could be construde by different ideologies to be against theirs, but I think I can make this simpler. Mostly I was talking about religion as I explained above. But I was also talking about arguments such as global warming, civil rights heroes, American Indians, etc...There can be alot of differences of opinion and I would prefer that public sector schools stick with the facts as best they can.

This post has been edited by JustinW: 27 January 2012 - 10:10 PM

[iNow]

 JustinW, on 27 January 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

I may not be as old as you, but I don't remember any big debates on the issue of TEACHING creationism in schools. In fact the most I've heard about have been from athiests protesting the saying of "In God we trust" in the National Anthum, or giving children a moment of silence to pray and such.

One doesn't have to be old. It's happening right now, and it's happening all across the country, and it has been happening essentially non-stop for a very long time. It's time you stop arguing from a position of incredulity and catch yourself up on current events.

Start here: http://ncse.com/

And here's one from just yesterday in Indiana: http://freethoughtbl...st-legislation/