[Ataraxia]

Quote

Published on Friday 5 July 2002 01:00

THE secret of a long life is abstinence from sex, scientists revealed yesterday.

A team from the University of Sheffield believes nuns and spinsters who stay away from the pleasures of the flesh outlive sexually active adults.







The "no sex" strategy for survival came from results found studying the sex lives of beetles at the university's department of animal and plant sciences. They discovered that mealworm beetles, which mate every day, die young, while those which avoid mating live for much longer.







Dr Michael Siva-Jothey, the leader of the team, said: "Nuns tend to have a longer lifespan than women with children and most people know of someone with a maiden aunt who seems to live forever. The question is, why?







"The beetles which mate die sooner than the beetles which don't mate. The mechanism is not the same in humans, but the principle is the same.







"In beetles, mating released hormones needed to produce sperm in a male or eggs in a female and that had a negative effect on the immune system.







"The assumption then is that if the immune system is downgraded, that leads to a loss of longevity. It is fair to assume that would be the same with other organisms including humans, because mating has a dual effect - a positive one, but then a negative one on the immune system.







"That is important to evolutionary biologists. The goal of evolution is not to live longer but to leave as many offspring as possible so if you produce a lot of offspring and die young then you have done your job in evolutionary terms.







"It makes perfect sense if you try to understand how sexually transmitted disease evolved and spread. The best time for a disease to find a host is during sexual activity when the immune system is weakened."







The findings are just one in a long line of evidence that suggest that males live longer if they abstain from sex.







In 1997, Dr David Gems, a geneticist at University College London, found that males who remain celibate are more likely to survive into a ripe old age.







He discovered that males are actually designed to live longer, but any help from nature is wiped out by the pursuit of sex.







Dr Gems reached the controversial conclusion while studying nematode worms.

http://www.scotsman....longer_1_611507



What do you make of this? I know the idea of regular ejaculation being necessary for good prostate health has become popular despite there not being any hard, conclusive evidence to support it but I'm almost certain that the most recent studies to support this view are misleading or out of context. For example, isn't it possible that men who ejaculate more frequently do so because they have higher levels of testosterone, the higher one's testosterone levels, the lower their DHT (since testosterone-DHT conversion accelerates in middle age and low testosterone/high DHT is associated with prostate cancer, male pattern baldness, ), and if this is true then there's not necessarily anything about ejaculating that prevents prostate cancer but men who are inclined to do so less often do so because they already have low testosterone and higher levels of DHT and are already more likely to develop prostate cancer. Or there could be other factors that correlate with ejaculation frequency that would increase the likeliness of developing prostate cancer. The most commonly accepted likely explanation for the celibacy=prostate cancer view is that frequent ejaculation flushes out toxins, carcinogenic compounds, cancerous cells etc. but doesn't the sexually mature, male body regulate itself through nocturnal emissions, which are almost analogous to menstruation in women?

It's interesting to note that as far as brain chemistry is concerned, sexual stimulation has the same effect as cocaine, heroine and other stimulants do, there's a 'hangover' after orgasm, depending on how strong or weak someone's refractory period is, in the same way that there is after alcohol or drug use. As the article points out, natural selection is only concerned with the propagation of genes.



I haven't been able to find a lot online to support my suspicions that sexual stimulation and, for men, ejaculation, can lead to an over production of sex hormones and a depletion of bodily resources needed to maintain this (if this is true, would it apply to sexual arousal as well or just stimulation, what about flexing the pc muscles?) but I think it's intellectually dishonest to dismiss this possibility outright for political reasons. Typically, doctors will flat out tell people that there is no such thing as too much masturbation or sex unless it interferes with their daily lives but I find this impractical, why would there be too much of everything else (I mean physiologically and not just in terms of *psychological* addiction) but not sexual stimulation? How can sexual stimulation and ejaculation not have any long-term physiological effects (I've heard it claimed that hormones stabilize soon after orgasm) if the libido of someone who ejaculates regularly is clearly different from the libido of someone whose been celibate for weeks or months, how do you account for that? I'm not coming at this from a philosophical or 'moral' point of view, nothing is intrinsically 'dirty' or inappropriate about sex regardless of it's long-term health consequences, I just want to know if there's any strong scientific evidence or reasoning to support the idea that celibacy (abstaining from all sexual stimulation, masturbation as well as sex) actually does strengthen the immune system or is beneficial for one's physical/mental health.

This post has been edited by Ataraxia: 14 January 2012 - 09:42 PM

[TonyMcC]

Ataraxia, on 14 January 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

[b]



http://www.scotsman....longer_1_611507



What do you make of this? I know the idea of regular ejaculation being necessary for good prostate health has become popular despite there not being any hard, conclusive evidence to support it but I'm almost certain that the most recent studies to support this view are misleading or out of context. For example, isn't it possible that men who ejaculate more frequently do so because they have higher levels of testosterone, the higher one's testosterone levels, the lower their DHT (since testosterone-DHT conversion accelerates in middle age and low testosterone/high DHT is associated with prostate cancer, male pattern baldness, ), and if this is true then there's not necessarily anything about ejaculating that prevents prostate cancer but men who are inclined to do so less often do so because they already have low testosterone and higher levels of DHT and are already more likely to develop prostate cancer. Or there could be other factors that correlate with ejaculation frequency that would increase the likeliness of developing prostate cancer. The most commonly accepted likely explanation for the celibacy=prostate cancer view is that frequent ejaculation flushes out toxins, carcinogenic compounds, cancerous cells etc. but doesn't the sexually mature, male body regulate itself through nocturnal emissions, which are almost analogous to menstruation in women?

It's interesting to note that as far as brain chemistry is concerned, sexual stimulation has the same effect as cocaine, heroine and other stimulants do, there's a 'hangover' after orgasm, depending on how strong or weak someone's refractory period is, in the same way that there is after alcohol or drug use. As the article points out, natural selection is only concerned with the propagation of genes.



I haven't been able to find a lot online to support my suspicions that sexual stimulation and, for men, ejaculation, can lead to an over production of sex hormones and a depletion of bodily resources needed to maintain this (if this is true, would it apply to sexual arousal as well or just stimulation, what about flexing the pc muscles?) but I think it's intellectually dishonest to dismiss this possibility outright for political reasons. Typically, doctors will flat out tell people that there is no such thing as too much masturbation or sex unless it interferes with their daily lives but I find this impractical, why would there be too much of everything else (I mean physiologically and not just in terms of *psychological* addiction) but not sexual stimulation? How can sexual stimulation and ejaculation not have any long-term physiological effects (I've heard it claimed that hormones stabilize soon after orgasm) if the libido of someone who ejaculates regularly is clearly different from the libido of someone whose been celibate for weeks or months, how do you account for that? I'm not coming at this from a philosophical or 'moral' point of view, nothing is intrinsically 'dirty' or inappropriate about sex regardless of it's long-term health consequences, I just want to know if there's any strong scientific evidence or reasoning to support the idea that celibacy (abstaining from all sexual stimulation, masturbation as well as sex) actually does strengthen the immune system or is beneficial for one's physical/mental health.

I'm pleased to say there is evidence to the contrary - http://longevity-sci...-longevity.html

I rather suspect that a celibate life might just seem longer!

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[Moontanman]

Ataraxia, on 14 January 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

[b]



http://www.scotsman....longer_1_611507



What do you make of this? I know the idea of regular ejaculation being necessary for good prostate health has become popular despite there not being any hard, conclusive evidence to support it but I'm almost certain that the most recent studies to support this view are misleading or out of context. For example, isn't it possible that men who ejaculate more frequently do so because they have higher levels of testosterone, the higher one's testosterone levels, the lower their DHT (since testosterone-DHT conversion accelerates in middle age and low testosterone/high DHT is associated with prostate cancer, male pattern baldness, ), and if this is true then there's not necessarily anything about ejaculating that prevents prostate cancer but men who are inclined to do so less often do so because they already have low testosterone and higher levels of DHT and are already more likely to develop prostate cancer. Or there could be other factors that correlate with ejaculation frequency that would increase the likeliness of developing prostate cancer. The most commonly accepted likely explanation for the celibacy=prostate cancer view is that frequent ejaculation flushes out toxins, carcinogenic compounds, cancerous cells etc. but doesn't the sexually mature, male body regulate itself through nocturnal emissions, which are almost analogous to menstruation in women?

It's interesting to note that as far as brain chemistry is concerned, sexual stimulation has the same effect as cocaine, heroine and other stimulants do, there's a 'hangover' after orgasm, depending on how strong or weak someone's refractory period is, in the same way that there is after alcohol or drug use. As the article points out, natural selection is only concerned with the propagation of genes.



I haven't been able to find a lot online to support my suspicions that sexual stimulation and, for men, ejaculation, can lead to an over production of sex hormones and a depletion of bodily resources needed to maintain this (if this is true, would it apply to sexual arousal as well or just stimulation, what about flexing the pc muscles?) but I think it's intellectually dishonest to dismiss this possibility outright for political reasons. Typically, doctors will flat out tell people that there is no such thing as too much masturbation or sex unless it interferes with their daily lives but I find this impractical, why would there be too much of everything else (I mean physiologically and not just in terms of *psychological* addiction) but not sexual stimulation? How can sexual stimulation and ejaculation not have any long-term physiological effects (I've heard it claimed that hormones stabilize soon after orgasm) if the libido of someone who ejaculates regularly is clearly different from the libido of someone whose been celibate for weeks or months, how do you account for that? I'm not coming at this from a philosophical or 'moral' point of view, nothing is intrinsically 'dirty' or inappropriate about sex regardless of it's long-term health consequences, I just want to know if there's any strong scientific evidence or reasoning to support the idea that celibacy (abstaining from all sexual stimulation, masturbation as well as sex) actually does strengthen the immune system or is beneficial for one's physical/mental health.

Yes, but why would you care?

[Mrs Zeta]

Taoist monks believe that sexual abstinence is the key to longevity. Every time a man ejaculates, he looses 'energy' so eventually he ages and dies (to my knowledge, tha fate of women is not mentioned in relation to this).

From the evolutionary point of view it is clear that we age because the allocation of resourcers favours the survival of the DNA rather than our body. So, in theory, the virtual abscence of sex/reproduction must be directly related to longevity.

The goal of evolution is not to have as much offspring as possible, but to increase fitness within a certain niche. Modern human's niche is survival within a technological/intelligent society and this does not necessarily fit with having many children, or with having any sex at all. What matters is increase of intelligence, not increase of offspring.

[questionposter]

For some living things this notion is true, but not for all. There's also studies that show that being happier increases your chances of living longer, working out, and even eating less also increase your life span.

[John Cuthber]

"Taoist monks believe that sexual abstinence is the key to longevity. "
Yet they keep on dying.

[Appolinaria]

Fuck, seems like I've got much longer to go than I thought.... oops, wait, I mean, sex takes off years?! Shit! All this time, I've been, having sex, of course, yeah, this is really terrible news...

[questionposter]

John Cuthber, on 15 January 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

"Taoist monks believe that sexual abstinence is the key to longevity. "
Yet they keep on dying.

Well they still live longer, but its not because of abstinence, its because they basically eat is little as possible.

[Tres Juicy]

Appolinaria, on 15 January 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

Fuck, seems like I've got much longer to go than I thought....

Is this a hint? I'm sure there are some lovely single sccientists here

[Appolinaria]

Tres Juicy, on 16 January 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

Is this a hint? I'm sure there are some lovely single sccientists here

Psh, like any of these blabbering fools would be so lucky

[Tres Juicy]

Appolinaria, on 16 January 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

Psh, like any of these blabbering fools would be so lucky

I'm sure there are one or two nice ones....

http://www.sciencefo...153-tres-juicy/

[ewmon]

This antagonistic or zero sum game idea involving the reproductive and immune systems is interesting at least from the perspective that they are the only systems that produce cells ad infiinitum ... well, at least in men.

This post has been edited by ewmon: 16 January 2012 - 06:25 PM

[Ataraxia]

Is semen production as taxing on the body as sperm production is? Does ejaculation or even just masturbation/sex trigger more sperm/semen production? Does sexual arousal itself?

Studies with nematode worms and fruit flies also showed that males who were prevented from mating lived longer (although with the worms, males who were altered to no longer produce sperm but allowed to mate lived longer, at about 14 days, than both the normal males who mated, who lived around 8 days, and the normal males who were prevented from mating, who lived around 12 days). There's also some evidence that men who have had vasectomies are healthier, less likely to get heart disease, cancer etc., and live longer. It's well known that celibate nuns, priests and monks live longer than the general population but that isn't necessarily due to their celibacy.

Thanks for the replies.

[Tres Juicy]

Ataraxia, on 16 January 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Is semen production as taxing on the body as sperm production is? Does ejaculation or even just masturbation/sex trigger more sperm/semen production? Does sexual arousal itself?

Studies with nematode worms and fruit flies also showed that males who were prevented from mating lived longer (although with the worms, males who were altered to no longer produce sperm but allowed to mate lived longer, at about 14 days, than both the normal males who mated, who lived around 8 days, and the normal males who were prevented from mating, who lived around 12 days). There's also some evidence that men who have had vasectomies are healthier, less likely to get heart disease, cancer etc., and live longer. It's well known that celibate nuns, priests and monks live longer than the general population but that isn't necessarily due to their celibacy.

Thanks for the replies.

vasectomies and sex for all!

[Mrs Zeta]

Ataraxia, on 16 January 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Is semen production as taxing on the body as sperm production is? Does ejaculation or even just masturbation/sex trigger more sperm/semen production? Does sexual arousal itself?

The production of semen or any other liquid in the body (saliva, tears, etc) is hardly taxing - in the longevity sense. What causes ageing is the inability of the body to repair repeated damage. Increased production of semen etc is not going to make any difference either way. Ditto for the production of sperm.

[Ataraxia]

Mrs Zeta, on 16 January 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

The production of semen or any other liquid in the body (saliva, tears, etc) is hardly taxing - in the longevity sense. What causes ageing is the inability of the body to repair repeated damage. Increased production of semen etc is not going to make any difference either way. Ditto for the production of sperm.

I find this hard to believe, at least about sperm production (doesn't semen have nutritional value that tears, saliva, sweat, which is just lubrication, do not?). How would you explain the fact that men who have had vasectomies are healthier and live longer (other factors considered), celibate priests, monks and nuns have long been known to live longer than the general population and the studies done with beetles, fruit flies and worms that all show males who are prevented from mating as living longer? I don't think anyone claims that sperm production alone causes aging, only that it might accelerate it or contribute to a less resilient immune system.

Also, does ejaculation, trigger increased production of new sperm to make up for sperm lost, does sexual arousal and/or sexual stimulation trigger sperm production, or will sperm production continue at the same pace regardless?

This post has been edited by Ataraxia: 18 January 2012 - 07:29 PM

[Moontanman]

Ataraxia, on 18 January 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I find this hard to believe, at least about sperm production (doesn't semen have nutritional value that tears, saliva, sweat, which is just lubrication, do not?).

I know lots of men like to think their semen is great in many ways for a woman to swallow, I remember the old "it's good for you" or "makes a great facial moisturizer" horse feathers but the fact is that these things are lies made up by egotistical men to convince reluctant women to give fellatio, semen has little real nutritional value, is not a great face cream, it's just a lubricant and the transport fluid of sperm.

Quote

How would you explain the fact that men who have had vasectomies are healthier and live longer

Again, the facts do not support this contention, vasectomies do not stop production of semen or sperm, a vasectomy prevents the sperm of ejaculation from getting to the glands that enter sperm into the semen stream, but with each ejaculation the same amount of sperm is released, it just doesn't go into the penis, in fact the sperm are released into the mans body instead of his semen.

Quote

(other factors considered), celibate priests, monks and nuns have long been known to live longer than the general population and the studies done with beetles, fruit flies and worms that all show males who are prevented from mating as living longer? I don't think anyone claims that sperm production alone causes aging, only that it might accelerate it or contribute to a less resilient immune system.

I would need to see some supporting evidence for this, it's far more likely that such differences in average life spans has more to do with, in the case of women, removing the issue of child birth which even today can kill a woman or removing the huge hormonal fluctuation that pregnancy induces. For both men and women being one of those monks or nuns or what eve can be shown to be due to the eating habits of these people, life style is the main driver of these differences not celibacy. Eat less live longer seems to be a key ingredient to living longer.

I am not sure that the connection can be made to the examples of things like worms or fruit flies since many of these creatures are genetically programmed to die after mating, mating is the end all be all of their existence and once mated their is no need for those mated adults to continue to live and compete with others of their kind for food and or other resources.

Then there is the issue of just because you, as human male at least, are going to ejaculate whether you are mating or even masturbating or not, if you repress your sexual urges you will dream about sexual things and ejaculate in your sleep, happens regularly to people who do not have sex or masturbate...

Quote

Also, does ejaculation, trigger increased production of new sperm to make up for sperm lost, does sexual arousal and/or sexual stimulation trigger sperm production, or will sperm production continue at the same pace regardless?

It continues more or less at the same rate or pace regardless... you can ejaculate enough to out pace sperm production quite easily resulting in semen that contains very little sperm... I think you might be thinking that semen and sperm are the same thing, I've had a vasectomy, the volume of my ejaculate is (or was) the same before and after my vasectomy, sperm is a very small part of semen volume wise...

This post has been edited by Moontanman: 18 January 2012 - 08:02 PM

[Ataraxia]

Moontanman, on 18 January 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

I know lots of men like to think their semen is great in many ways for a woman to swallow, I remember the old "it's good for you" or "makes a great facial moisturizer" horse feathers but the fact is that these things are lies made up by egotistical men to convince reluctant women to give fellatio, semen has little real nutritional value, is not a great face cream, it's just a lubricant and the transport fluid of sperm.

I once believed similarly but I think it might be a myth that the nutritional value of semen is (completely) a myth. I'm too lazy to support this by providing links but I've read that vitamins, minerals, enzymes, proteins etc. found in semen far outweigh those found in a similar amount of blood and the amount of 'energy' needed to produce a certain amount of semen is far greater that the resources needed to produce a similar amount of blood. It's been shown that properties in semen act as an anti-depressant for women who have sex without condoms.

Quote

Again, the facts do not support this contention, vasectomies do not stop production of semen or sperm, a vasectomy prevents the sperm of ejaculation from getting to the glands that enter sperm into the semen stream, but with each ejaculation the same amount of sperm is released, it just doesn't go into the penis, in fact the sperm are released into the mans body instead of his semen.

It doesn't prevent sperm production but the sperm produced is reabsorbed by the body (right?).

Quote

I would need to see some supporting evidence for this, it's far more likely that such differences in average life spans has more to do with, in the case of women, removing the issue of child birth which even today can kill a woman or removing the huge hormonal fluctuation that pregnancy induces. For both men and women being one of those monks or nuns or what eve can be shown to be due to the eating habits of these people, life style is the main driver of these differences not celibacy. Eat less live longer seems to be a key ingredient to living longer.

http://www.independe...onk-645518.html

I quickly googled this article which claims that diet is not a factor, I thought maybe emotional resilience or optimism that might come with religious beliefs could be a factor but monks, nuns, priests, live longer than their congregations as well. None of this suggests that celibacy is a factor in why they live longer, you're right, it could be any number of reasons.

Quote

I am not sure that the connection can be made to the examples of things like worms or fruit flies since many of these creatures are genetically programmed to die after mating, mating is the end all be all of their existence and once mated their is no need for those mated adults to continue to live and compete with others of their kind for food and or other resources.

None of the species I've mentioned die soon after mating, as far as I know, and as different as they are from us, basic principles of evolution should remain the same. Natural selection favors those characteristics that help an organism to propagate their genes, whether it's by aiding them in reproducing and living long enough to do so or helping relatives to reproduce and propagate their shared genes. Shouldn't the basics of mating be universal in all sexually reproducing animals, we see similar patterns across species when it comes to male vs. female promiscuity, prostitution, competition etc.

Quote

Then there is the issue of just because you, as human male at least, are going to ejaculate whether you are mating or even masturbating or not, if you repress your sexual urges you will dream about sexual things and ejaculate in your sleep, happens regularly to people who do not have sex or masturbate...

Yes, but most men who have nocturnal emissions typically have them once every 15-30 days so there's isn't the same over-stimulation of sex hormones which might explain a link between celibacy and longevity as much as the costliness of sperm production does but I don't know. I honestly do think that sexual stimulation is a drug, that it is literally, by it's nature, physiologically addictive and has the same effects as cocaine, heroine, although to a much lesser extent.

Quote

It continues more or less at the same rate or pace regardless... you can ejaculate enough to out pace sperm production quite easily resulting in semen that contains very little sperm... I think you might be thinking that semen and sperm are the same thing, I've had a vasectomy, the volume of my ejaculate is (or was) the same before and after my vasectomy, sperm is a very small part of semen volume wise...

I'm aware that sperm only makes up around 1-2% of the total volume of semen.

[Moontanman]

Ataraxia, on 18 January 2012 - 08:39 PM, said:

I once believed similarly but I think it might be a myth that the nutritional value of semen is (completely) a myth. I'm too lazy to support this by providing links but I've read that vitamins, minerals, enzymes, proteins etc. found in semen far outweigh those found in a similar amount of blood and the amount of 'energy' needed to produce a certain amount of semen is far greater that the resources needed to produce a similar amount of blood. It's been shown that properties in semen act as an anti-depressant for women who have sex without condoms.

This subject is so full of urban legends and myth it's difficult to separate out fact from fantasy, wikii is down today so i am having problems finding a starting point that isn't grossly prejudged in some manner. I do remember many years ago reading in playboy magazine that semen has almost no nutritional value and contains at most 15 calories per "serving" and while it does contain much of the same substances that other human body fluids contain, semen is not a great source of anything but sexual fantasy... I know that playboy is hardly a science magazine but if they had been able to link anything positive to swallowing semen I am quite sure they would have reported it. When wiki comes back up all try again but right now I went through several pages of google and found nothing but contradicting answers, most based in sexual fantasy...

Quote

It doesn't prevent sperm production but the sperm produced is reabsorbed by the body (right?).

Yes, your bodies immune system takes are of it to some extent. but the fact remains that since it's nutritional value is trivial it's loss is not a big deal to the human body.

Quote

http://www.independe...onk-645518.html

I quickly googled this article which claims that diet is not a factor, I thought maybe emotional resilience or optimism that might come with religious beliefs could be a factor but monks, nuns, priests, live longer than their congregations as well. None of this suggests that celibacy is a factor in why they live longer, you're right, it could be any number of reasons.

My argument would be why would anyone care if celibacy prolonged your life by a couple years, in the long run I would trade a lifetime of good sex for a couple years increase average life expectancy...

Quote

None of the species I've mentioned die soon after mating, as far as I know, and as different as they are from us, basic principles of evolution should remain the same. Natural selection favors those characteristics that help an organism to propagate their genes, whether it's by aiding them in reproducing and living long enough to do so or helping relatives to reproduce and propagate their shared genes. Shouldn't the basics of mating be universal in all sexually reproducing animals, we see similar patterns across species when it comes to male vs. female promiscuity, prostitution, competition etc.

Humans are a bit unusual in that we live a long time after our ability to reproduce has diminished, has to do with having grand parents help with the raising of such helpless infants if I recall correctly.

Quote

Yes, but most men who have nocturnal emissions typically have them once every 15-30 days so there's isn't the same over-stimulation of sex hormones which might explain a link between celibacy and longevity as much as the costliness of sperm production does but I don't know. I honestly do think that sexual stimulation is a drug, that it is literally, by it's nature, physiologically addictive and has the same effects as cocaine, heroine, although to a much lesser extent.

Do you have some sort of anti-sex ax to grind or something?

Quote

I'm aware that sperm only makes up around 1-2% of the total volume of semen.

Ok, but the fact remains that semen is not high in nutritional content, that is a sexual myth or in some cases fantasy. I have seen some research that seems to indicate that women who do swallow semen are less likely to have an specific allergic reaction to their partners semen which can result in infertility in some women.

[Mrs Zeta]

John Cuthber, on 15 January 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

"Taoist monks believe that sexual abstinence is the key to longevity. "
Yet they keep on dying.

You are mistaken, they don't die. Those who follow the right path and become chsien (immortal) live forever in inaccessible mountains or distant villages. Yes.