[Neob91]

Hello! I was having a problem recently, so I decided to ask on this forum. My problem is that I can't smile unless I am looking at a person who is also smiling (a little polite smile doesn't work though, it has to be a big genuine smile) or if I really do experience a positive emotion while engaged in a conversation with someone. I find myself incapable of smiling whenever I want (it always looks weird when I try to fake it). I am currently going through training for a new job that will require me to have contact with people, and smiling is a really important part of it. Is there a way that I could smile in any situation? Thank you in advance for your answers.

[Dekan]

Neob91, on 13 January 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Hello! I was having a problem recently, so I decided to ask on this forum. My problem is that I can't smile unless I am looking at a person who is also smiling (a little polite smile doesn't work though, it has to be a big genuine smile) or if I really do experience a positive emotion while engaged in a conversation with someone. I find myself incapable of smiling whenever I want (it always looks weird when I try to fake it). I am currently going through training for a new job that will require me to have contact with people, and smiling is a really important part of it. Is there a way that I could smile in any situation? Thank you in advance for your answers.

That's a good question. "Smiling" seems to come naturally to less advanced people. To scientific people, smiling is more of a deliberate act.

In my youth, I kept a kind of diary, to record discoveries about life. One of these discoveries was: "It is of the utmost importance to smile at people". Why that should be important, I never really understood. But it's something one has to do.

Personally, I'd prefer to communicate with another person, without having to distort my lips in an upward curve. Such gestures remind one of the lip movements exhibited by chimpanzees. However, as some humans are only talking chimps, it's necessary for homo scienticus to placate them by atavistic smiling.

The best advice I can give is this - when giving a false smile - also wrinkle the skin round your eyes - this makes the smile look genuine!

[TonyMcC]

Dekan, on 19 January 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

However, as some humans are only talking chimps, it's necessary for homo scienticus to placate them by atavistic smiling.

Perhaps you should read - http://scienceray.co...mpanzees-smile/
To quote from the link -

Attached thumbnail(s)

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[Dekan]

TonyMcC, on 19 January 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Perhaps you should read - http://scienceray.co...mpanzees-smile/
To quote from the link -

Thanks Tony, for the link. From reading it, I see that the anthropoid grin, and its toned-down version, the smile, originally displayed fear. That makes sense - a baring of the teeth when fearing possible danger - "Look what big strong biting teeth I've got - don't dare attack me!"

It could explain why humans have evolved to smile at each other. By a mutual smile, we convey to each other: "We're both strong, with big teeth. We're evenly matched. So fighting will get us nowhere. Let's be friends!"

But doesn't this reveal, that the whole "smiling" business is a deplorable hangover from primitive times. In modern times, surely we can dispense with it?

I personally find very bothersome to keep having to smile at people. But good strategy can produce worthwhile results - to reiterate the advice I originally gave to Neob91:

"When smiling - make sure you crinkle your eyes as well - this fools 'em good."

[iNow]

Dekan, on 20 January 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

I personally find very bothersome to keep having to smile at people.

Geesh. No wonder you have such a hard time expressing joy. I'm not sure an inability to smile is the source of your problem. It sounds like a symptom of something a bit deeper.

[TonyMcC]

Dekan, on 20 January 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

But doesn't this reveal, that the whole "smiling" business is a deplorable hangover from primitive times. In modern times, surely we can dispense with it?

"When smiling - make sure you crinkle your eyes as well - this fools 'em good."

Isn't most of our instinctive behaviour some sort of hangover from primitive times? I see these hungover factors as aids to social living. Without them we could easily find ourselves isolated and "lonely in the midst of a crowd". Can you explain why I smile with pleasure when I meet my children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren?
.

This post has been edited by TonyMcC: 20 January 2012 - 05:01 PM

[iNow]

Dekan, on 20 January 2012 - 02:46 PM, said:

But doesn't this reveal, that the whole "smiling" business is a deplorable hangover from primitive times. In modern times, surely we can dispense with it?

Apparently not. Even YOU put a smilie into your own post #2.

[Dekan]

TonyMcC, on 20 January 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

Isn't most of our instinctive behaviour some sort of hangover from primitive times? I see these hungover factors as aids to social living. Without them we could easily find ourselves isolated and "lonely in the midst of a crowd". Can you explain why I smile with pleasure when I meet my children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren?
.

You're right about instinctive hangovers. That could explain why you smile at the sight of human infants. It's because you see them (instinctively) as potential food. However, when the infant smiles back at you, its smile instinctively deters you from attempting to eat it.

Why else do babies instinctively smile at their parents? I bet any baby which didn't smile and gurgle with apparent pleasure, when confronted by its parent looming over it, would soon get eaten, or chucked out of the nest. At least, in primitive times.

In modern times, these instinctual reactions ought to consigned to the dustbin of history.

Shouldn't we look forward to a world, where humans can meet and exchange rational data, without crude instinctive facial signals?

[TonyMcC]

Dekan, on 21 January 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

Shouldn't we look forward to a world, where humans can meet and exchange rational data, without crude instinctive facial signals?

You already have it - its known as a forum on the internet. In fact you have had that possibility since the written word became common. As for me and,I believe, for most people seeing the face and its expressions is a valuable component of communication. I have a feeling you are pulling my leg - or as a well known veteran tennis player might say "You can't be serious!"

[Dekan]

iNow, on 20 January 2012 - 04:30 PM, said:

Geesh. No wonder you have such a hard time expressing joy. I'm not sure an inability to smile is the source of your problem. It sounds like a symptom of something a bit deeper.

Yes, it's a symptom of a wish. That the world, was made up of libraries and laboratories. With calm serious people, rationally discussing
scientific questions.

That would be true joy. Without facial grimacing!

[iNow]

Sounds almost fascist, if you ask me. Who are YOU to tell ME what is and is not truly joyful?

[Dekan]

iNow, on 22 January 2012 - 04:28 AM, said:

Sounds almost fascist, if you ask me. Who are YOU to tell ME what is and is not truly joyful?

Do you need to be told? A scientist, or person who's interested in science, is truly joyful, by finding out something for the first time. Probably.

May I give a quote from Leon Lederman's excellent popular book "The God Particle". The bit where he found out parity violation was true:

"By now the machine had come up to its best intensity... zero degrees was reading 2,560, 180 degrees was reading 1,222. On a purely statistical basis this was overwhelming.... my breathing was becoming difficult, my palms were wet, my heartbeat accelerated. I felt lightheaded - many (not all!) of the symptoms of sexual intercourse. This was big stuff...new information about the world...Physics was changed."

Could that justify an argument, that Science is only a kind of Freudian substitute for sexual intercourse?

I hope not! But as we still feel a need to keep smiling at each other, who knows what really motivates us to construct things like cyclotrons and the LHC?

This post has been edited by Dekan: 24 January 2012 - 04:01 PM

[Essay]

Dekan, on 21 January 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

You're right about instinctive hangovers. That could explain why you smile at the sight of human infants. It's because you see them (instinctively) as potential food. ....

...What?!?

The grimace may rather be associated with "vulnerability," which in certain (primeval?) circumstances requires a fight/flight response, but in other (social?) circumstances can be an invitation to cooperate.

~

[Dekan]

Essay, on 26 January 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

...What?!?

The grimace may rather be associated with "vulnerability," which in certain (primeval?) circumstances requires a fight/flight response, but in other (social?) circumstances can be an invitation to cooperate.

~

A thought-provoking post - thanks! "Vulnerability", is a good word for what I was trying to get at.

Suppose you grimace at a person, by drawing back your lips, in a smile which displays aggressive biting teeth. That's clearly a threatening gesture. It sends the message: "Submit to me - or I'll bite you - you're vulnerable to my strong teeth".

However, what if the other person opens their lips with a similar, alarmingly well-fanged smile? Then your threat is matched.

So Mutual Deterrence is established. A Balance of Toothsome Terror. You both recognise your "vulnerability" to dentitional attack. This leads to peaceful co-existence and guardedly grinning co-operation. Isn't that how history works? Instead of teeth, substitute American Minuteman III missiles and Russian SS-18's, and you got the way most humans behave.

It all comes back to that horrible deceitful smile!

Why can't we be unemotional and straight-faced all the time? Wouldn't it be a huge relief?

[Shawnus]

Why do we smile when we see something we like? Smiling at people I get...but if I see something witty, or even beautiful..I smile. I have big happy smiles, mildly amused ones, mischievous smiles (my favourite). It comes naturally..I couldn't control it, without conditioning, nor would I want to.