[PhDwannabe]

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Empirically, dreams are unconscious, mental experiences--meaning experiences that play-out in our mind amid an unconscious state. To suggest otherwise would be disengenuous; to believe otherwise is without basis in the science "we both know about."

Sure. Taken as settled.

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what I proposed to Appolinaria was one possible way to view the unconscious, mental effects her dream experiences likely suggested. A dream about eating fruit, for example, interprets something the dreamer believes she mentally experienced unconsciously. The whole of that experience regards something she unconsciously perceived as a mental occurrence. What possible meaning could the mental occurrence shown by consuming fruit suggest? Consumption of something she perceives as inwardly (mentally) satisfying perhaps? What I proposed to Appolinaria was that possibility.

Yes. Your personal extrapolations--speculations, perhaps--from basic science. Which you've not supported in a clear way. And really, to be honest, can't, since the "meaning" of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study. Nor is the "meaning" of anything (depending on what we mean by "mean"), particularly those things inaccessible to minimally direct empirical observation.

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Surely an adult wouldn't select your profile, then proceed to your ongoing discussions with, apparently, the sole intent to anonymously manipulate the tenor of your amaible and constructive discussions via the negative point/reputation option. Although known to me from our initial exchanges at this discussion site, I presume from such behavior that this individual would rather remain anonymous.

Huh?

[tar]

PhDwannabe,

I have spent the last year reading and musing on the "meaning" behind language.

And NOW you tell me, I can not arrive at the answers I seek empirically.

Are you quite sure about this?

Perhaps we should look at what we mean by meaning.

There may be some analogies between what we mean when we speak and think, and what we mean when we dream.

If language is symbols and syntax, that "stand" for something. One could say that a word "means" this thing that it is standing for. Not too far removed to consider the zepplin or the fountain, or the multilayered playground, "standing" for something...meaning something. Not words, but images and memories, and arrangements, that "act" as words would act, in whatever subconscious/unconscious conversation or engagement you are involved in, when you dream.
The rules appear to be a bit different in dreams than they are in reality. Whatever a dream is "about", may or may not be "understandable" to someone not having it. However, to the dreamer, whatever "situation" they are in, in a dream, is, I would imagine, "voiced" in a "language" that they comphrehend. At the time of the dream, in the dream, the "meanings" are probably somewhat obvious to the dreamer. Remembering the dream however, once you are awake, you may or may not remember the translation...what was standing for what. And I would guess, that to some degree, the reason why its hard to remember dreams is because they don't translate well into the established meaning of things in the waking world.

As Appolanaria said, dreams seem to have a high "emotional" content. And I often remember the "mood" of a dream, but none of the particulars. It couldn't have been me unzipping a cloud and finding a toaster inside...that just doesn't happen...doesn't make any sense. And why would such a thing leave me in a "satisfied" accomplished, friendly mood? I must have been dreaming about something else.

I am not talking about Zepplins being phalic, that is too simplictic and would "make sense" to someone that was not having the dream. I am talking about the Zepplin "meaning" whatever it is standing for in the context of the dream, for the dreamer.

Might not be a way to empirically settle on meaning for a particular dream. But that does not mean that a meaning was not portrayed in the dream.

Regards, TAR2

[DrmDoc]

[quote name='PhDwannabe' timestamp='1322947430' post='642370']
Sure. Taken as settled.


Yes. Your personal extrapolations--speculations, perhaps--from basic science. Which you've not supported in a clear way. And really, to be honest, can't, since the "meaning" of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study. Nor is the "meaning" of anything (depending on what we mean by "mean"), particularly those things inaccessible to minimally direct empirical observation.


Huh?
[/quote]

How early adolescents describe their dreams: a quantitative analysis

The Quantitative Study of Dreams

Your commentary at the beginning of this discussion thread established your position and the extent of your knowledge on this subject. Therefore, my comments were for the followers here who remain open to the subject matter.

This post has been edited by DrmDoc: 5 December 2011 - 05:18 PM

[PhDwannabe]

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[color=#284B72 !important][color=#551A8B]How early adolescents describe their dreams: a quantitative analysis[/color][/color]

The study you've cited investigates self-reported dream content. Dream content can of course be investigated empirically (albeit with the substantial limitations of self-report). I wasn't talking about content; if you look above, I was talking about meaning. And I'm not sure what meaning means anyway.

[DrmDoc]

PhDwannabe, on 5 December 2011 - 08:24 PM, said:

The study you've cited investigates self-reported dream content. Dream content can of course be investigated empirically (albeit with the substantial limitations of self-report). I wasn't talking about content; if you look above, I was talking about meaning. And I'm not sure what meaning means anyway.

Your comments,"And really, to be honest, can't, since the "meaning" of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study," were very clear. Indeed there has been some ongoing quantitative scientific study of dream content for meaning. The links above, particularly The Quantitative Study of Dreams, stands in clear contradiction to your frankly stated position. In view of your uncertainty as to "what meaning means", I suggest, relative to dream content, a Google Scholar search on Quantitative Dream Study for your future references--if you are of serious interest. Before openly declaring a position on any aspect of this subject, I advise a search of the science, particularly the neuroscience, to everyone of sincere interest. What this science suggests about brain evolution and the nature of the active unconscious brain amid dreaming is fascinating.

This post has been edited by DrmDoc: 6 December 2011 - 05:03 PM

[PhDwannabe]

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The links above, particularly The Quantitative Study of Dreams, stands in clear contradiction to your frankly stated position.

Looked at it for a few minutes. Why was it so hard to find links to studies published in high-quality peer-reviewed scientific journals on there? Tell you what, it almost makes a guy suspicious.

[DrmDoc]

PhDwannabe, on 6 December 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

Looked at it for a few minutes. Why was it so hard to find links to studies published in high-quality peer-reviewed scientific journals on there? Tell you what, it almost makes a guy suspicious.

As you well know, selecting The Quantitative Study of Dreams link is not in itself a Google Scholar search for Quantitative Dream Study. As it was originally presented, The Quantitative Study of Dreams overall and readily contradicts your prior claim regarding "...the 'meaning' of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study." A Google Scholar search, as many here know and as I suggested to you, can and does provide a plethora of readily available links to the types of scholarly works you described. What's most "suspicious" here is your attempt to construe the above link as a resource other than as I originally presented. However, if pursued with sincere interest, navigating to that link's references is no more difficult, involved, or "suspicious" than at any similar science resource site. If the followers of this discussion select the links and do the scholarly searchers themselves, all I have here stated will be confirmed.

[PhDwannabe]

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As it was originally presented, The Quantitative Study of Dreams overall and readily contradicts your prior claim regarding "...the 'meaning' of a dream--or any other cognitive experience, for that matter--is not really an item of scientific study."

Nah, not really. You're begging the question. What I'm saying is that the site and its content aren't particularly scientific.

[StringJunky]

PhDwannabe, on 7 December 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

Nah, not really. You're begging the question. What I'm saying is that the site and its content aren't particularly scientific.

One of the guys who put that site together is a research professor in psychology and sociology...had his PhD since 1962.

This an article by him about how to use his websites and methodology...seems quite serious and as clinically methodological as one could be in a difficult area of study:

http://www.asdreams....ams/domhoff.htm

[PhDwannabe]

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One of the guys who put that site together is a research professor in psychology and sociology...had his PhD since 1962.<br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); "><br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); ">This an article by him about how to use his websites and methodology...seems quite serious and as clinically methodological as one could be in a difficult area of study:<br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); "><br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); ">http://www.asdreams....ams/domhoff.htm

Having a PhD makes you a scientist (and your work scientific) like standing in a garage makes you a car.

The website--it does look very scientific, doesn't it? It certainly takes on the form of science. Is it published in a high-quality peer-reviewed journal?

Why might that be important, you might ask. Why? Because science is communal. If it's not, guess what, it isn't science. It's a hobby.



Now, will someone tell me what it'd mean for dreams mean something, and how we'd find out?

This post has been edited by PhDwannabe: 8 December 2011 - 02:00 AM

[StringJunky]

PhDwannabe, on 8 December 2011 - 01:56 AM, said:

Having a PhD makes you a scientist (and your work scientific) like standing in a garage makes you a car.

So, you don't need a PhD to be a scientist?

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Now, will someone tell me what it'd mean for dreams mean something, and how we'd find out?

I think you need a large study with diaries of people's summaries of their innermost daily waking thoughts and their concurrent dreams. From these diaries detailing the waking and dreaming states, one could try and find a correlation between the dream content or symbolism and the subjects wakeful overall emotional state during the course of the study.

This post has been edited by StringJunky: 8 December 2011 - 03:43 AM

[DrmDoc]

StringJunky, on 7 December 2011 - 11:06 PM, said:

One of the guys who put that site together is a research professor in psychology and sociology...had his PhD since 1962.

This an article by him about how to use his websites and methodology...seems quite serious and as clinically methodological as one could be in a difficult area of study:

http://www.asdreams....ams/domhoff.htm

Your independent review confirms, as I have said, that the site is a link to reliable evidence of ongoing scientific study of dream content for meaning contrary to an unsubstantiated claim to the contrary. If other followers here select the links and review the site, they will confirm what your efforts have revealed.

Phwannabe said:

The website--it does look very scientific, doesn't it? It certainly takes on the form of science. Is it published in a high-quality peer-reviewed journal?

If "high-quality peer-reviewed" journals and articles are your sincere interest, what was the results of your Google Scholar search?

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Now, will someone tell me what it'd mean for dreams mean something, and how we'd find out?

New directions in the study of dream content using the Hall and Van de Castle coding system
[HTML] Methods and measures for the study of dream content
Start with a Google Scholar search.

This post has been edited by DrmDoc: 8 December 2011 - 06:55 PM

[PhDwannabe]

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If "high-quality peer-reviewed" journals and articles are your sincere interest, what was the results of your Google Scholar search?

1) lots of junk science and pseudoscience
2) studies which examine sleep in a more scientific context which don't attempt to establish the "meaning" of dreams

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<br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); ">New directions in the study of dream content using the Hall and Van de Castle coding system<br style="font-size: 13px; line-height: 16px; background-color: rgb(248, 250, 252); ">
[HTML]Methods and measures for the study of dream content

Content is not meaning. Try again.

[DrmDoc]

PhDwannabe, on 8 December 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

1) lots of junk science and pseudoscience
2) studies which examine sleep in a more scientific context which don't attempt to establish the "meaning" of dreams

And there we have it. It is my opinion that you, like many who are disinterested and unstudied in dream science, consider all dream research and study "junk science and pseudoscience" regardless of the preponderance of peer-reviewed, scientifically obtained evidence to the contrary. Of the thousands of links to scholarly articles, that was all you found?

For the readers of this discussion with serious interest, the following is from a prior search of peer-reviewed articles whose links can be found with a Google Scholar search:

Taken from this peer-reviewed article The Effects of Current-Concern- and Nonconcern-Related Waking Suggestions on Nocturnal Dream Content, published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, and obtained through the EBSCO Host of an online university, Doctors Nikles, Breckt, Klinger, and Bursell concludes the following from their study of student participants over several nights in their sleep laboratory:

"…the evidence from this and other investigations confirms that dreams are meaningfully related to dreamers' current concerns and hence to their real lives. The findings of the present study also confirm the importance of current-concern content in moderating the effectiveness of presleep suggestions. They therefore contribute further evidence that dreams reflect current goal pursuits and that volitional processes continue to be active enough during sleep to influence dream imagery."

In this similarly obtain paper titled Dream Content and Psychological Well-Being: A Longitudinal Study of the Continuity Hypothesis and published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology, Doctors Pesant and Zadra concludes:

"In summary, ours is the first longitudinal study to examine the relationship between people's level of psychological well-being and corresponding dream content characteristics. The findings obtained provide further empirical evidence for the continuity hypothesis and indicate that affect and social interactions represent two psychologically important dimensions in dream content that merit further study."

And in this paper, Relation Between Waking Sport Activities, Reading, and Dream Content in Sport Students and Psychology Students, published in the Journal of Psychology, Dr. Schredl's study suggests a relationship between waking-life experience and dreaming with:

"To summarize, the results of this study clearly show an effect of time spent in a particular waking-life activity on the rate of incorporating the waking-life activity into dreams. The findings also indicate that factors such as emotional involvement and associated worries might be of importance in explaining the relation between waking and dreaming. Future studies using longitudinal designs would shed more light on this relation and would help researchers to derive a more precise formulation of the continuity hypothesis."

The links to these articles do not work outside of the university's library site. However, I was able to find the following links to abstracts confirming these peer-reviewed papers conclusions:

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=buy.optionToBuy&id=1998-04530-018

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jclp.20212/abstract

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a925359142

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Content is not meaning. Try again.

Which confirms your earlier admission of not knowing "what meaning means" relative to dream content. For what other reason might there be a coding methodology of dream content for study if not for meaning--which, by the way, is an effort to determine the relevance, if any, of dream content to the psychological or material experiences of the dreamer.

This post has been edited by DrmDoc: 10 December 2011 - 10:23 PM

[charles brough]

This is what I learned:

There is the early period of the night's sleep when you sleep "deeply." This is the most important part in getting the needed rest. Later, the sleep is "lighter" and dreaming serves to keep us asleep as long as possible to satisfy mind and body need. Sometime we wake up gradually as the dream becomes less and less bazzar and fades into conscious worry or we wake up because the dreaming has been unpleasant and stirred up the hormones.

[Beast]

Well in science terms a dream is considered a way to keep you in the sleeping state and most dreams last for around 20mins most likely max from what i have read.

In psychology terms a dream can have some important things in them for example ive moved to a new school resently and the name of a new person person popped up in the dream and i havent forgot it.

But mostly its random pictures and thoughts as most people cannot remember dreams after a few mins

This post has been edited by Beast: 4 January 2012 - 11:13 PM

[DrmDoc]

Beast, on 4 January 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Well in science terms a dream is considered a way to keep you in the sleeping state and most dreams last for around 20mins most likely max from what i have read.

In psychology terms a dream can have some important things in them for example ive moved to a new school resently and the name of a new person person popped up in the dream and i havent forgot it.

But mostly its random pictures and thoughts as most people cannot remember dreams after a few mins

You may want to read a bit more of the science, in discussion above, because maintaining the sleep state is unlikely the purpose of dreaming given dreams can and do cause arousal from sleep. It is likely that dreaming is an evolved byproduct of activations in the brain arising from vestigial metabolic processess associated with the prolonged inactivity and food privation our animal ancestors likely experienced.