[starburns]

We can currently do transplants of lungs, kidneys, livers, etc. if those organs are damaged or diseased. Will we ever be able to do so with brains?

I've heard a lot about the possibility of growing replacement organs in vitro or using 3-D printers to create replacement organs. When will we be able to do so with brains? What obstacles lie in the way?

[Realitycheck]

About a million little axons need to be reconnected, and you only have a very vague idea which is which based on which nerve they travel out of the spinal cord in. By the time it all gets up to the brain, things start getting pretty fuzzy, also because we have different parts of the brain controlling different functions.

[Mr. Moonlight]

this will never be possible. that is if humans are carrying out the op maybe robotics maybe a step forward in surgical procedures, more so than what they are now obviously.

[Ringer]

Mr. Moonlight, on 20 August 2011 - 10:26 PM, said:

this will never be possible. that is if humans are carrying out the op maybe robotics maybe a step forward in surgical procedures, more so than what they are now obviously.

Any particular reason why transplanting a brain would be impossible?

[TonyMcC]

It reads as if the OP is asking if someone with a damaged brain might be given someone else's brain. This would be rather pointless (IMO) because you would, in effect, become the donor of the brain. If you were given a brain somehow artificially produced it would surely "be empty" and you would have to be taught everything again and I also wonder if the artificially produced brain would even have the instinctive responses needed for survival. I am thinking of breathing etc. On the other hand I am in my 70's so if anyone wants to put my brain into a young man's body when my time comes I'll give it a go!

This post has been edited by TonyMcC: 21 August 2011 - 09:49 AM

[starburns]

Also, what about artificial brains made of, say, silicon? We have artificial hearts? Could we one day transplant artificial brains (i.e. non-biological brains) into patients with brain tumors? Has IBM already helped us get closer to that (http://www.bbc.co.uk...nology-14574747)?

[starburns]

TonyMcC, on 21 August 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

It reads as if the OP is asking if someone with a damaged brain might be given someone else's brain. This would be rather pointless (IMO) because you would, in effect, become the donor of the brain. If you were given a brain somehow artificially produced it would surely "be empty" and you would have to be taught everything again and I also wonder if the artificially produced brain would even have the instinctive responses needed for survival. I am thinking of breathing etc. On the other hand I am in my 70's so if anyone wants to put my brain into a young man's body when my time comes I'll give it a go!

Why would it "be empty"? If we can scan it and determine the position of every atom/molecule (or at least of every cell), and if we know the person's DNA sequence, why couldn't we create a brain that's identical to the one in his/her skull?

[herbbread]

The OP has a really interesting question. While I think it's theoretically possible to duplicate someone's brain, it is unlikely to be feasible for many decades. The level of our understanding of the brain is quite low compared to many other organ systems, and getting to the technological point at which we could duplicate every neuron and synapse functionally will be very very hard. But if you did manage to duplicate the state of all neurons in someone's brain in silico and somehow managed to interface it with all the nerves that feed into and come out of it, I would expect that person would be exactly the same as they were with their "natural" brain.

Then there's tons of ethical questions that come into play. If you can duplicate someone's brain, can you create life? And if you interface this artificial brain with artificial sensors and devices to allow it to communicate with the outside world, would it be a human? Would it have the same rights as a person born naturally?

[Moontanman]

You might duplicate a brain but you couldn't duplicate the experiences, thoughts, and emotions that make you ... you, transplanting a new brain in a body would mean the death of the old brain and the person, i see no reason to to that. you might be able to transplant a brain into a new body but it would be the person who's brain was transplanted, not the person the body was...

[Realitycheck]

You're talking about an incredibly large amount of information flowing from an equally large amount of sources.

You're talking about an incredibly large amount of information flowing from an equally large amount of sources. The latest IBM supercomputer, meant to answer any question you throw at it doesn't even come close.

You're talking about an incredibly large amount of information flowing from an equally large amount of sources. The latest IBM supercomputer, meant to answer any question you throw at it doesn't even come close.

[Psycho]

Surely with the advent of 3D printing this could form a basis for the printing of extremely complex structures in the future such as arteries and axons which in theory if the printing and scanning technology is complex enough should be perfect replicas of the original.

This doesn't really seem unfeasible in the near future. The structures could be printed in a sterile environment from real scans, forgetting the immunological problems that would occur with even the smallest molecular defect for the moment, it should be workable in the future for fair simple structures, especially if a repeating units are its main feature.

The main problem comes when inserting these structures into a human where damage, infection, rejection can all occur in or after the surgery. Given that this is the case; if a molecule scanning process could be created that could perfectly copy all the molecules and structures of the body as a whole and then print this in a sterile environment this could be avoided due to the person being completed "in one go" per se.

Now I understand this is in no way possible now and would cause myocardial infarction in an ethics board, but the basis of the technology is appearing, to print simple structures, I assume this technology will move forward to more complex items but will most likely falter at some point, but lets say it never reaches that point however it does become possible to print whole complex organs and surgery techniques advance enough to allow insertion of these.

The real question is; if you could molecularly print a brain with an error rate of 0 and insert it in a younger clone of yourself (to remove immunological problems) would that be the same person as the original?

I ask this because it has been shown that bacterial inoculation of the intestine in mice increases levels of anxiety over sterile control mice and tumours producing hormones can change behavioural traits. So does the brain really control everything or does it just regulate the systems and respond too their feedback and if these systems were altered (such as your brain or copied brain in a different body) would you really be the same person any more, is your personality just a function of the emotional perceptions of your brain to its surroundings or is it also effected by physical changes within the whole body. Most would say both are true but no one currently really knows to what proportion each effect is relevant.

This point becomes even more pertinent when you take into account "random" mutations that occur and the differences in these between you and a clone, for instance, you "grow" yourself a 20 year old clone in some form of stasis (No idea how that would work) to have your brain inserted into, but you in your original body started to smoke at 16, say you smoked 10 cigarettes a day, given that research has show that you can one mutation per cell in your lungs occurs per 15 cigarettes you smoke, this would lead to the original you having 973 more mutations in your lungs at the same age than the clone you are inserting it into, that is not even mentioning the genetic differences that would occur of putting your brain in someone else's body if it were immunologically viable.

Just some idea to think about, while completely forgetting the fact we are talking about taking your brain out.

[TonyMcC]

Imagine the following scenario - An unfortunate young man, married and aged about 20, dies from sudden catastrophic brain damage. At the same time I, in my 70's, am near death and give permission for my brain to be transplanted into his 20 year old body. What would the young wife think of a 20 year old husband who would rather sleep with a woman in her 70,s? What would my wife think of her new "Toy boy"?

[Realitycheck]

I'm really skeptical of 3d printers being able to capture all of the detail. Just think of the variety of details and structures in a cubic millimeter. You've got blood cells, of course, and membranes, muscle, t cells, other types of immune cells, plasma, bone, or whatever, and I've barely even scratched the surface, all made of an infinitely more microscopic assortment of varieties of chemicals and structures. How's this printer going to know how to produce a vacuole of liquid inside a cell made out of another liquid without a firm needle injecting the liquid into an empty vacuole before placing that inside the cell full of cytoplasm. Just throwing strings of material in a big heap doesn't mean it's all going to function together like a complex ukaryote would. Star Trek, Fifth Element, I think that's just a little far out there. I think I'd actually be more trusting in the information detail of a transporter, but still doubt it would ever happen.

This post has been edited by Realitycheck: 9 October 2011 - 08:58 PM

[Psycho]

Realitycheck, on 9 October 2011 - 08:36 PM, said:

I'm really skeptical of 3d printers being able to capture all of the detail. Just think of the variety of details and structures in a cubic millimeter. You've got blood cells, of course, and membranes, muscle, t cells, other types of immune cells, plasma, bone, or whatever, and I've barely even scratched the surface, all made of an infinitely more microscopic assortment of varieties of chemicals and structures. How's this printer going to know how to produce a vacuole of liquid inside a cell made out of another liquid without a firm needle injecting the liquid into an empty vacuole before placing that inside the cell full of cytoplasm. Just throwing strings of material in a big heap doesn't mean it's all going to function together like a complex ukaryote would. Star Trek, Fifth Element, I think that's just a little far out there. I think I'd actually be more trusting in the information detail of a transporter, but still doubt it would ever happen.

While I agree this is probably true that the systems will never be developed it is always nice to dream and when you get bored of that work out a work around to get a similar outcome. For example researches have stripped the cells off of a trachea of a donor to just leave its cartilage scaffold they have then grown the patients stems cells onto the cartilage creating a new trachea which won't be immunologically rejected by the host.

In this case all you have to do is print the cartilage scaffold rather than get a donor one and you can grow the rest of the cells in vitro.

This post has been edited by Psycho: 10 October 2011 - 12:14 AM

[Appolinaria]

Even if we have the technology to connect the brain nerves & the body doesn't reject it, there would probably be a whole lot of issues following... maybe body integrity disorder? If our body doesn't match the internal map we have stored in our parietal cortex, it may never adjust. The brain is one of the first things to develop in the embryo....

http://www.bbsrc.ac....discovered.aspx

[Psycho]

Appolinaria, on 10 October 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

Even if we have the technology to connect the brain nerves & the body doesn't reject it, there would probably be a whole lot of issues following... maybe body integrity disorder? If our body doesn't match the internal map we have stored in our parietal cortex, it may never adjust. The brain is one of the first things to develop in the embryo....

http://www.bbsrc.ac....discovered.aspx

I doubt this would be a problem assuming a health viable brain was created, the people who suffer with that are brain damaged in a certain area. People have been shown to naturally adapt when holding tools and for all intense and purposes see them as extensions of there arms, hence they don't hit them accidentally against things because they are aware of how far there "artificial extremity" now reaches.

One major problem would be accepting your new appearance if you changed bodies, this is a problem when people get partial or whole face transplants and extensive psychological testing and counselling is given before the procedure to ascertain whether the patient will be able to cope with the change.

[Appolinaria]

Psycho, on 10 October 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

I doubt this would be a problem assuming a health viable brain was created, the people who suffer with that are brain damaged in a certain area. People have been shown to naturally adapt when holding tools and for all intense and purposes see them as extensions of there arms, hence they don't hit them accidentally against things because they are aware of how far there "artificial extremity" now reaches.

One major problem would be accepting your new appearance if you changed bodies, this is a problem when people get partial or whole face transplants and extensive psychological testing and counselling is given before the procedure to ascertain whether the patient will be able to cope with the change.

But BID is a psychological disorder & not proven to be because of neurological damage yet.... it could be brought on by "not accepting your new appearance" after a surgery (stress induced), like with face transplants, as you mentioned.

This post has been edited by Appolinaria: 10 October 2011 - 07:53 PM

[Realitycheck]

Something else you would want to be cognizant of is that for such a sensitive organ, few matches would "fit". Think about machine shop precision, and if it doesn't fit perfectly, then you have some serious pain problems in the brain, trying to cram the new engine in the old block or whatever. You might be able to get around that, to an extent, by shaving shims out of sinuses and the skull, but space would be limited. Could I get a brain in size 34 68 56 48 21?

[Realitycheck]

...

This post has been edited by Realitycheck: 11 October 2011 - 12:13 AM

[Psycho]

Appolinaria, on 10 October 2011 - 07:35 PM, said:

But BID is a psychological disorder & not proven to be because of neurological damage yet.... it could be brought on by "not accepting your new appearance" after a surgery (stress induced), like with face transplants, as you mentioned.

The Wikipedia article you supplied but obviously didnt read said:

The most widely accepted current theory on the origin of BIID is that it is a neurological failing of the brain's inner body mapping function

Your own source contradicts you.