[Mr Rayon]

Can meditation extend human life? If so, by how many years?

[insane_alien]

there is no medical data to support it.

the only way it could possibly extend human life is by reducing stress but that won't matter if you get highly stressed regularly

[Nexium Tao]

Theoretically, maybe. But until it has been proven through a series of tests that any type of meditation actually extends human life (Which is no small task to test, let alone prove) the notion of it extending life will rightly remain as pseudoscience, like all other scientific ideas that cannot be proven or tested.

This post has been edited by Nexium Tao: 26 December 2010 - 12:58 PM

[insane_alien]

if it cannot be proven or tested then it is not a hypothesis

[jimmydasaint]

insane_alien, on 26 December 2010 - 11:02 AM, said:

there is no medical data to support it.

the only way it could possibly extend human life is by reducing stress but that won't matter if you get highly stressed regularly

What do you men by stress i_a and how would stress affect the immune system or the cardiovascular system. And is it the same for all people. I thought some people thrived on stressful situations.

This video has some 'advice' on meditation

This post has been edited by jimmydasaint: 26 December 2010 - 03:42 PM

[Nexium Tao]

jimmydasaint, on 26 December 2010 - 03:16 PM, said:

What do you men by stress i_a and how would stress affect the immune system or the cardiovascular system. And is it the same for all people. I thought some people thrived on stressful situations.

Your talking how psychologically some people can thrive on stress, he is saying medically stress is always a negative. The following are just several examples of how stress can kill you;

1. Diabetes

Diabetes occurs when the body produces too little insulin to process all the sugars in your body. As these sugars build up, you may experience a number of health problems including thirst, headaches and weight loss. Over time, the condition can cause complications ranging from heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, eye damage, nerve damage, diabetic neuropathy, skin conditions, and gastrointestinal problems.

2. High Blood Pressure

High levels of stress can bring on this condition, which can result in an aneurysm, coronary heart disease, enlarged heart, damage to the brain and even heart attack.

3. Weight Gain

People under high levels of stress often experience fluctuations in weight - However, if your weight gain gets out of control, you could be putting yourself at risk for developing cancer, heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, stroke, sleep apnea, liver disease and gallbladder disease.

4. Susceptibility to Disease

Your body can only do so much - when you're under constant pressure, its resources are being diverted to help respond to stress. This leaves the immune system compromised and susceptible to infection by viruses and bacteria.

5. Depression

Constant stress can make you feel like there's no way out of your predicament, which can eventually lead to feelings of hopelessness and depression. Depression is a serious disease - it's nothing to take lightly, it can lead to many immune system problems as suicide.

6. Heart Disease

Stress can and does cause heart disease and heart attacks. Stress contributes to the buildup of plaque in the arteries. As the arteries narrow, the heart has to push the blood even harder to distribute it throughout the body. Over time, this extra stress on the heart can have devastating effects.

7. Cancer

While there's no proven link between stress and cancer, it's widely accepted that excessive stress is a risk factor for developing a type of this deadly disease. Overall, stress weakens the immune system which may allow cancerous tissues to develop and flourish.

[insane_alien]

http://en.wikipedia....s_%28biology%29

stress as definied psychologically and biologically.

it does have physiological effects as it can alter your body chemistry.

a little stress is a good thing for most people and some people enjoy a bit of higher stress but everybody has their limits and it will eventually start to degrade their health to the point where it can actually kill you.

[Marat]

Statistically, about the most lethal thing a person can do is to retire, even though this greatly diminishes psychological stress. Physical stress, such as the body being constantly exposed to a high level of cytokines or inflammation, is very different from psychological stress, which some people seem to thrive on, since it is so intimately bound up with their feeling useful and wanting to go on living. Unfortunately, in popular parlance the two kinds of stress are often confused, as has been pointed out above, so discussions about the effects of stress become quite muddy.

[lemur]

Meditation may have positive effects precisely because it produces a certain level of stress associated with impatience with boring (in)activity. In fact, I think one of the main benefits of meditation would be that as you learn to relax despite the stress of boredom, you become better psychologically equipt to deal with stressful situations generally because the breathing and calming that you do during meditation becomes second-nature and may even occur subconsiously in stressful situations where you have to pay attention to more important things. The media seems to always show people actively engaging in breathing techniques and other relaxation exercises in a comic way, as if these are fleeting attempts to deal with stress that people can't deal with. In reality, people who are good at dealing with stress have probably learned by other means techniques similar to the ones practiced during meditation.

This post has been edited by lemur: 26 December 2010 - 09:13 PM

[jimmydasaint]

Nexium Tao, on 26 December 2010 - 03:45 PM, said:

Your talking how psychologically some people can thrive on stress, he is saying medically stress is always a negative. The following are just several examples of how stress can kill you;

1. Diabetes

Diabetes occurs when the body produces too little insulin to process all the sugars in your body. As these sugars build up, you may experience a number of health problems including thirst, headaches and weight loss. Over time, the condition can cause complications ranging from heart disease, stroke, kidney disease, eye damage, nerve damage, diabetic neuropathy, skin conditions, and gastrointestinal problems.

2. High Blood Pressure

High levels of stress can bring on this condition, which can result in an aneurysm, coronary heart disease, enlarged heart, damage to the brain and even heart attack.

3. Weight Gain

People under high levels of stress often experience fluctuations in weight - However, if your weight gain gets out of control, you could be putting yourself at risk for developing cancer, heart problems, high blood pressure, diabetes, stroke, sleep apnea, liver disease and gallbladder disease.

4. Susceptibility to Disease

Your body can only do so much - when you're under constant pressure, its resources are being diverted to help respond to stress. This leaves the immune system compromised and susceptible to infection by viruses and bacteria.

5. Depression

Constant stress can make you feel like there's no way out of your predicament, which can eventually lead to feelings of hopelessness and depression. Depression is a serious disease - it's nothing to take lightly, it can lead to many immune system problems as suicide.

6. Heart Disease

Stress can and does cause heart disease and heart attacks. Stress contributes to the buildup of plaque in the arteries. As the arteries narrow, the heart has to push the blood even harder to distribute it throughout the body. Over time, this extra stress on the heart can have devastating effects.

7. Cancer

While there's no proven link between stress and cancer, it's widely accepted that excessive stress is a risk factor for developing a type of this deadly disease. Overall, stress weakens the immune system which may allow cancerous tissues to develop and flourish.

I need a reference please. And also note that stress means different things to different people. IT is a generalised term that does not take into account genetic or behavioural factors which would be essential to fighting 'stress'. So far you have not elucidated what is meant by stress, so how can you talk about the effects?

Marat said:

Statistically, about the most lethal thing a person can do is to retire, even though this greatly diminishes psychological stress. Physical stress, such as the body being constantly exposed to a high level of cytokines or inflammation, is very different from psychological stress, which some people seem to thrive on, since it is so intimately bound up with their feeling useful and wanting to go on living. Unfortunately, in popular parlance the two kinds of stress are often confused, as has been pointed out above, so discussions about the effects of stress become quite muddy.

This comes closer to clearing up my doubts about what is meant by stress and why it is different for different people. I think we need precise definitions of stress before anyone can enter into a conversation about meditation and its effects, and why it should have certain effects. I would also expect references from reasonably scientific journals and not blogs or 'spiritual' sites which are not at least peer referenced).

insane-alien said:

http://en.wikipedia....s_%28biology%29

stress as definied psychologically and biologically.

it does have physiological effects as it can alter your body chemistry.

a little stress is a good thing for most people and some people enjoy a bit of higher stress but everybody has their limits and it will eventually start to degrade their health to the point where it can actually kill you.

OK let's get more specific in our definitions:

Quote

The term stress was first employed in a biological context by the endocrinologist Hans Selye in the 1930s.[2] He later[when?] broadened and popularized the concept to include inappropriate physiological response to any demand. In his usage stress refers to a condition and stressor to the stimulus causing it. It covers a wide range of phenomena, from mild irritation to drastic dysfunction that may cause severe health breakdown.

Stress wiki

There are apparently three different models that took the generalised comments above and made observations as a result (the first part of scientific technique in action):

1. General adaptation syndrome
2.Selye: eustress and distress
3. Lazarus: cognitive appraisal model
Stress wiki

Model 1. The first model is what I would call a general model which may appeal to most people. It involves three stages: Alarm, Resistance and Exhaustion. The Alarm stage involves the stressing agent (e..g a bully approaches and you see him, adrenaline is produced for the 'fight or flight' response). Resistance involves a psychological coping mechanism for the stress. Exhaustion represents depletion of the body's resources (mental and physical) to the stressor and the autonomic nervous system recreates the responses to the original stressor. This last response could cause damage psychologically or to the heart or digestive system. Stress wiki

If this is a good enough model to define stress and its effects then a discussion should be made using this model as a reference point.

I will let others read about, and evaluate, the other two models for stress. However, what I find significant is the part where 'stress tests' are made on individuals:

Quote

Stress tests

Measuring stress level independent of differences in people's personalities has been inherently difficult: some people are able to process many stressors simultaneously, while others can barely address a few. Such tests as Trier Social Stress Test attempted to isolate the effects of personalities on ability to handle stress in a laboratory environment.

(emphasis is my own).

This post has been edited by jimmydasaint: 27 December 2010 - 01:05 PM

[Nexium Tao]

jimmydasaint, on 27 December 2010 - 12:35 PM, said:

I need a reference please. And also note that stress means different things to different people. IT is a generalised term that does not take into account genetic or behavioural factors which would be essential to fighting 'stress'. So far you have not elucidated what is meant by stress, so how can you talk about the effects?

You are right, so far we have all been generalising distress as stress, which is an oversight on all our parts, so to further the discussion let us define what we mean as Stress

Stress is a psychological and physical response of the body that occurs whenever we must adapt to changing conditions, whether those conditions be real or perceived, positive or negative. Also although everyone has stress in their lives, people respond to stress in different ways. Some people seem to be severely affected while others seem calm, cool, and collected all the time.

Now, let us say for sake of discussion that there are two types of stress, Eustress (good stress) and Distress (not so good stress).

Eustress: This is the "good" type of stress (opposite of Distress) and refers to the optimal amount of stress which helps promote health and growth. Many times stressful events push us to perform to higher levels and excel….this is eustress.

Distress refers to the "bad" type of stress (the opposite of Eustress), and occurs when we have excessive adaptive demands placed upon us. This occurs when the demands upon us are so great that they lead to bodily and mental damage. Distress is damaging, excessive or pathogenic.

Now that we have defined stress and it's two sub branches for sake of argument, we can return to my points earlier and note that I was speaking of distress and not actually stress as a whole.

This post has been edited by Nexium Tao: 27 December 2010 - 01:55 PM

[jimmydasaint]

Nexium Tao, on 27 December 2010 - 01:50 PM, said:

You are right, so far we have all been generalising distress as stress, which is an oversight on all our parts, so to further the discussion let us define what we mean as Stress

Stress is a psychological and physical response of the body that occurs whenever we must adapt to changing conditions, whether those conditions be real or perceived, positive or negative. Also although everyone has stress in their lives, people respond to stress in different ways. Some people seem to be severely affected while others seem calm, cool, and collected all the time.

Now, let us say for sake of discussion that there are two types of stress, Eustress (good stress) and Distress (not so good stress).

Eustress: This is the "good" type of stress (opposite of Distress) and refers to the optimal amount of stress which helps promote health and growth. Many times stressful events push us to perform to higher levels and excel….this is eustress.

Distress refers to the "bad" type of stress (the opposite of Eustress), and occurs when we have excessive adaptive demands placed upon us. This occurs when the demands upon us are so great that they lead to bodily and mental damage. Distress is damaging, excessive or pathogenic.

Now that we have defined stress and it's two sub branches for sake of argument, we can return to my points earlier and note that I was speaking of distress and not actually stress as a whole.

Agreed, by discussing the negative effects of stress (or distress), I can agree to the spectrum of physiological and psychological disorders caused by stress. Now what we need are proper, research-based articles, on the effects of meditation on negative stress and how it improves health. I would be really interested in research on the immune system because it may be pivotal in avoiding some of the worst physiological effects of being (dis)stressed. As a teacher, I am aware of the effects of constant pressure on my fellow professionals (and me, of course). Meditation would be an excellent way to cope with (dis)stress. I have been on a course where we were advised that if we had a difficult class or pupil, we had to take a deep breath and 'see ourselves from outside our bodies' in order to buy time before making an assertive point.

IMHO, much negative stress arises from the perception, or fact, not being in control of your own live/job/relationships.

[Danilcrag]

We can not say that meditation extends any human life. Its only to be healthy till we are alive. It keeps you healthy. It keeps you far from the diseases.

vipassana meditation