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Is Psychology A Science? Please read the first post carefully before you type anything! Rate Topic: -----

#41 thinker_jeff 


Baryon

View PostPhDwannabe, on 10 February 2011 - 11:22 PM, said:

We don't have laws? I had no idea. I'll be delighted to hear you prove this negative.


This is negative way to argue.
If there are general laws of psychology, please show how you can causally deduct some consequence from these laws.

View PostPhDwannabe, on 10 February 2011 - 11:22 PM, said:


Care to define/operationalize "unification?" Biology's totally not a science, by the way.


In my term, here is the examples about the level of unification in the fields of science, from high to low: physics, chemistry, biology, psychology.
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#42 PhDwannabe 


Atom

Quote

If there are general laws of psychology, please show how you can causally deduct some consequence from these laws.


"Causally deduct?" That's a distractingly placed modifier if I've ever heard one. I'm just going to replace that with "predict," and the sentence then begins to make some parsimonious sense. I'll answer it that way.

Before I do, though, a brief thought on scientific "laws" vs. "theories." Philosophy of science as I understand it still tangles about the distinction. "Theory" often seems to inhabit a continuum between loosely confirmed hypotheses and laws. I don't tend to make much of a distinction. Some people are fussy about laws, and demand that they must be absolute and universal in some way--in other words, they always predict everything about their subject matter. I don't tend to agree. Many of Newton's "laws" only work well in the comfortably nonrelativistic space around us--his understanding of gravity is, of course, just wrong. Einsteinian understandings replaced it. But that doesn't mean Newton's laws don't make really, really good empirical approximations if I, say, want to hit you with a cannonball or something. To me, they're still plenty good laws. There's some semantic and substantive debate about what these terms mean; I tend to throw up my hands a bit, and I'm going to use them interchangeably. Mostly just because I'm feeling snarky. (Nonetheless, I'd maintain even strictly defined "laws" aren't necessary for the scientific process--I'm not sold that biologists have them in a strict sense, and it doesn't make them any bit less scientists in my book.) Anyway, back to the question. You want a law? I'll give you something like it...



Let's take operant conditioning, a relatively powerful way of describing a sizable range of behavior. The basics of these "laws" are that behaviors which are reinforced increase, while behaviors that are punished decrease. Reinforcement and punishment gain power by--among other variables--proximity to the behavior for which the consequence is applied. Negative reinforcement (which describes the reinforcing power of the removal of a noxious or unpleasant condition, as opposed to the more familiar positive reinforcement, involving a Scooby Snack) is extremely useful in describing the set of circumstances around, for instance, phobic and anxious behavior.

In panic attacks, for instance, individuals characteristically avoid situations in which attacks might occur, and remove themselves from situations in which they do occur. Negative reinforcement paradigms predict this: avoidance is negative reinforcing, since it removes stimuli associated with the unpleasant attack. The behavior (that is, the attack itself) is thus made more likely. We can confirm this experimentally: when we more dramatically reinforce panic attacks by making avoidance behaviors easier, the attacks themselves become more frequent. Clinically, the most efficacious treatments fall under a paradigm loosely known as "exposure," in which we systematically restrict avoidance in the presence of the feared stimuli (for PD patients, those stimuli are often internal sensations which we have to deliberately induce for treatment--it's not the funnest thing in the world.)

And then what happens? The panic behavior looses its reinforcement, and fades--a process we call "extinction." The specific treatment for panic disorder, Interoceptive Exposure, is one of the most efficacious in a clinical psychologist's repertoire. It works because its nitty-gritty details are so well-predicted and explained by relatively simple laws of behavior which have been verified experimentally for decades. In the usual inductive/deductive cycle of science, these procedures, informed by the law and theory, get translated into experiments which inform the theory with new empirical details, which thus lead to new hypotheses and new empirical work.

There's nothing terribly distinct about psychology as a science in this process sense. I will say that our stats tend to be more complex, since the focus of our study is human beings, who carry along with themselves vast and irritating individual differences and free wills that rats, paramecia, jars of benzene, and globular clusters simply don't have in such abundance. The study of these ridiculous creatures is far from impossible, but it's statistically tricky. It also means that the certitude of our predictions is lower--I can't predict the outcome of mixing two people in a room with the same reliability as a chemist and predict the outcome of mixing two chemicals in a flask. Part of that's because some of my variables are stubbornly invisible. A lot of it's because I don't have the cash to measure all the variables necessary. When you're far away or limited in that way, your predictions have error (hear about any of those newly discovered extrasolar planets lately? You think they know the mass of them as precisely as we know the mass of earth?) That doesn't mean your predictions are meaningless, or you're not acting according to scientific laws, under the guidance of the scientific method.

I'll say it all over again for the back row: the theory gets informed by empiricism, and guides further empirical work which goes on to shape it. Round and round. So, yeah, pretty mundane scientific method. Move along folks, nothing to see here. If you're curious, the family of exposure methods has been rigorously and carefully investigated, and has seen a flowering of applications (you need to be well-guided by behavioral law/theory if you're going to stretch it like this) for not only panic attacks but social phobia, PTSD, OCD, and even physical health conditions like Irritable Bowel Syndrome. In most cases, its efficacy is superior to that of psychopharmacological interventions in both short-term (sometimes we're on par with the pills there) and follow-up (we more or less run the table there). Sorry, psychiatrists. Better luck next time?

Quote

In my term, here is the examples about the level of unification in the fields of science, from high to low: physics, chemistry, biology, psychology.

I have learned never to doubt that deep, Linnaean urge deep in all of us to make cool-sounding hierarchies. That's a beautiful and arbitrary little list you've got there (and isn't the arbitrary often beautiful?) Can't say I haven't seen it about a thousand times. I do wonder if it means anything.


N.B.: Pro tip.
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#43 thinker_jeff 


Baryon

View PostPhDwannabe, on 11 February 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

"Causally deduct?" That's a distractingly placed modifier if I've ever heard one. I'm just going to replace that with "predict," and the sentence then begins to make some parsimonious sense. I'll answer it that way.



This reaction clearly indicates how far away psychology needs to improve.
I have no intention to blame the scientists in psychology nor to depreciate this branch of science. In fact I believe this is the most complicate field of science, that is why we're working hard in this field. What I pointed out is undeniable reality which is always the challenge to us.

View PostPhDwannabe, on 11 February 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

I have learned never to doubt that deep, Linnaean urge deep in all of us to make cool-sounding hierarchies. That's a beautiful and arbitrary little list you've got there (and isn't the arbitrary often beautiful?) Can't say I haven't seen it about a thousand times. I do wonder if it means anything.



Good. At least the issue about the terminology of "unification" has been dismissed.
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#44 PhDwannabe 


Atom
...What?
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#45 stradi 


Quark
I've been impressed by some of the social psychologists like Zimbardo, although I'm not sure what he's doing is science.

"Clinical psychology" is a nonsense.
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#46 PhDwannabe 


Atom
This still going on? I can't wait to hear how clinical psychology is "a nonsense." Preferably, with references to:

1) the poster's understanding of what clinical psychology specifically is and does
2) specific empirical studies
3) the specific points laid out many months ago in the first several posts of the thread



Or we could just leave it there and not defend our assertions. But that would be a stupid.
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#47 stradi 


Quark

View PostPhDwannabe, on 14 March 2011 - 01:01 AM, said:

This still going on? I can't wait to hear how clinical psychology is "a nonsense." Preferably, with references to:

1) the poster's understanding of what clinical psychology specifically is and does
2) specific empirical studies
3) the specific points laid out many months ago in the first several posts of the thread



Or we could just leave it there and not defend our assertions. But that would be a stupid.



Gosh, you sound quite abrupt. Was it you who minused my comment?

Clinical psychology was founded on the professional fraud of Sigmund Freud, who publically claimed his case study patients had been cured, while privately admitting that they were nothing of the sort in correspondence with his fiancee. What does clincial psychology specifically do? Nothing. It's founded on unproven theories and "proved" with self-validating reasoning.

Specific studies: Eysenck (a clinical psychologist) showed in a study that the proportion of people who improved in psychotherapy was identical to the proportion of people who improved on their own (albeit over a longer period). The American Association of Psychologists President once referenced a study at an annual meeting of their association,which showed all you needed to be a good therapist was an empathetic character. The empathetic person would be good without all the supposedly high-powered education.

My friend's friend is a social psychologist at Rutgers who agreed with this conclusion. Beyond empathy, he thought the rest was nonsense. Like his example: drumming your fingers on the table demonstrates a masturbatory complex. Its nonsense, but as "scientific" as anything Freud did: just the latest vogue in speculation.
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#48 Ringer 


Molecule

View Poststradi, on 15 March 2011 - 04:52 PM, said:

Clinical psychology was founded on the professional fraud of Sigmund Freud, who publically claimed his case study patients had been cured, while privately admitting that they were nothing of the sort in correspondence with his fiancee. What does clincial psychology specifically do? Nothing. It's founded on unproven theories and "proved" with self-validating reasoning.


I'm fairly certain we have all already agreed on this, and many other threads, that Freud was a quack. What theories and self-validated reasoning are you referring to? Hopefully you won't mention the psychosexual theories of Freud because that just may show your ignorance of how far psychotherapy and analysis has come. Your use of Freud is the same thing as me saying that evolution isn't true because Lamarck had a bad theory.

Quote

Specific studies: Eysenck (a clinical psychologist) showed in a study that the proportion of people who improved in psychotherapy was identical to the proportion of people who improved on their own (albeit over a longer period). The American Association of Psychologists President once referenced a study at an annual meeting of their association,which showed all you needed to be a good therapist was an empathetic character. The empathetic person would be good without all the supposedly high-powered education.


I'd have to assume you are referring to This study which, so far as I can tell, just discusses the use of Freudian techniques in comparison to other techniques (I just skimmed it so I may be wrong). Another thing to take into account is that the paper was written in 1952, before something as simple as behavior modification would be implemented.

About the AAP president study, please give a link to such a study so others know what it says and perhaps be able to actually have a discussion.

Quote

My friend's friend is a social psychologist at Rutgers who agreed with this conclusion. Beyond empathy, he thought the rest was nonsense.



I'm sure many people may agree with you, that doesn't mean your right.
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#49 stradi 


Quark

View PostRinger, on 15 March 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

I'm fairly certain we have all already agreed on this, and many other threads, that Freud was a quack. What theories and self-validated reasoning are you referring to? Hopefully you won't mention the psychosexual theories of Freud because that just may show your ignorance of how far psychotherapy and analysis has come. Your use of Freud is the same thing as me saying that evolution isn't true because Lamarck had a bad theory.


Hardly. Where exactly has psychotherapy been proven to work?


Quote

I'd have to assume you are referring to This study which, so far as I can tell, just discusses the use of Freudian techniques in comparison to other techniques (I just skimmed it so I may be wrong). Another thing to take into account is that the paper was written in 1952, before something as simple as behavior modification would be implemented.


Hmm.. no:

"A survey was made of reports on the improvement of neurotic patients after psychotherapy, and the results compared with the best available estimates of recovery without benefit of such therapy. The figures fail to support the hypothesis that psychotherapy facilitates recovery from neurotic disorder. In view of the many difficulties attending such actuarial comparisons, no further conclusions could be derived from the data whose shortcomings highlight the necessity of properly planned and executed experimental studies into this important field. "

Quote

About the AAP president study, please give a link to such a study so others know what it says and perhaps be able to actually have a discussion.


Will search for one.



Quote

I'm sure many people may agree with you, that doesn't mean your right.


Never said it did?

Page 11 of this article: http://tanadineen.co...ion/Skeptic.pdf


Tana Dineen takes the APA's Consumer Reports claims re. effectiveness of psychotherapy to pieces. Surely they wouldn't have to resort to dishonest reporting like this if their claims were genuine?
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#50 PhDwannabe 


Atom

Quote

Clinical psychology was founded on the professional fraud of Sigmund Freud, who publically claimed his case study patients had been cured, while privately admitting that they were nothing of the sort in correspondence with his fiancee.


Show me your source. Actually, don't. It doesn't matter. Because no clinician I know cares about Freud, or practices a mode of psychology which would be remotely recognizable to him.

Quote

What does clincial psychology specifically do? Nothing. It's founded on unproven theories and "proved" with self-validating reasoning.


Kindly demonstrate this assertion with evidence.

Quote

Specific studies: Eysenck (a clinical psychologist) showed in a study that the proportion of people who improved in psychotherapy was identical to the proportion of people who improved on their own (albeit over a longer period).


Please cite the study, as well as some of the major responses to it.

Quote

The American Association of Psychologists President once referenced a study at an annual meeting of their association,which showed all you needed to be a good therapist was an empathetic character. The empathetic person would be good without all the supposedly high-powered education.


There is no such thing as the American Association of Psychologists. Please cite the study.

Quote

My friend's friend is a social psychologist at Rutgers who agreed with this conclusion.


That's fascinating. My cat, Punkin, has a friend named Charles, who's also a social psychologist, and heartily disagrees with you. I guess we're even on that one.

Quote

Like his example: drumming your fingers on the table demonstrates a masturbatory complex. Its nonsense, but as "scientific" as anything Freud did: just the latest vogue in speculation.


I don't believe that. No clinical scientist I know does.

Perhaps you could continue to attempt to demonstrate your assertions--here I'll repeat myself--

Quote

Preferably, with references to:

1) the poster's understanding of what clinical psychology specifically is and does
2) specific empirical studies
3) the specific points laid out many months ago in the first several posts of the thread


That'd be lovely.
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#51 Ringer 


Molecule

View Poststradi, on 15 March 2011 - 07:07 PM, said:

Hmm.. no:

"A survey was made of reports on the improvement of neurotic patients after psychotherapy, and the results compared with the best available estimates of recovery without benefit of such therapy. The figures fail to support the hypothesis that psychotherapy facilitates recovery from neurotic disorder. In view of the many difficulties attending such actuarial comparisons, no further conclusions could be derived from the data whose shortcomings highlight the necessity of properly planned and executed experimental studies into this important field. "


'But even the much more modest conclusions that the figures fail to show any favorable effects of psychotherapy should give pause to those who would wish to give an important part in the training of clinical psychologists to a skill the existence and effectiveness of which is still unsupported by any scientifically acceptable evidence.'

Seems he makes a distinction between psychotherapy and other clinical practices. Back then psychotherapy was not the broad term that it is today; it was the couch therapists method that is so often seen in movies, which is, as I said, Freudian.


Quote

Page 11 of this article: http://tanadineen.co...ion/Skeptic.pdf


Tana Dineen takes the APA's Consumer Reports claims re. effectiveness of psychotherapy to pieces. Surely they wouldn't have to resort to dishonest reporting like this if their claims were genuine?

She doesn't really take their claims apart. They claim prolonged therapy helps more than short term therapy. Although Consumer Reports misrepresent the numbers with the use of that graph it still doesn't show how psychology is not a science.

This post has been edited by Ringer: 16 March 2011 - 02:12 AM

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#52 stradi 


Quark

View PostPhDwannabe, on 16 March 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

Show me your source. Actually, don't. It doesn't matter. Because no clinician I know cares about Freud, or practices a mode of psychology which would be remotely recognizable to him.


But where have these clinicians shown psychology to cure mental illness? If we accept that Freudianism is a load of bollocks, we also accept the need for it to have been proven completely independently that psychology does this. Freud proved nothing of the sort, so who did?

View PostRinger, on 16 March 2011 - 02:12 AM, said:

'But even the much more modest conclusions that the figures fail to show any favorable effects of psychotherapy should give pause to those who would wish to give an important part in the training of clinical psychologists to a skill the existence and effectiveness of which is still unsupported by any scientifically acceptable evidence.'

Seems he makes a distinction between psychotherapy and other clinical practices. Back then psychotherapy was not the broad term that it is today; it was the couch therapists method that is so often seen in movies, which is, as I said, Freudian.


Not that I can see. Could you quote the bit where you think such a distinction is made?


Quote

She doesn't really take their claims apart. They claim prolonged therapy helps more than short term therapy. Although Consumer Reports misrepresent the numbers with the use of that graph it still doesn't show how psychology is not a science.


I believe she does. Prolonged therapy is shown to help a bit more than short term therapy, although the greatest rate of improvement is shown in the first month. None of it shown to help very much.

View PostPhDwannabe, on 16 March 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:




Kindly demonstrate this assertion with evidence.






Surely it's incumbent on you to show evidence that it does work, as this assertion is in no way proven? I say to you the assumption of clinical psychologists that they can cure mental illness without proof has led to their mistreatment of schizophrenia, pellagra, tourette's and autism (one psychologist decided autism was caused by refrigerator mother's). This led to mnany loving mothers being needlessly blamed and slandered before the founder of the theory was exposed as a fraud.

Ok, the study suggesting paraprofessionals may be just as helpful as professionals was part of this literature review:

'Who--Or What--Can Do Psychotherapy?' by Andrew Christensen and Neil Jacobson in 'Psychological Science,' January 1994;

"The two psychologists report that years of experience, professional education, or lawful credentials do not determine the success of psychotherapy. Never mind that millions of dollars are spent each year on studies comparing the approaches of experienced therapists. Never mind that the more experienced, more educated therapists charge more money for their services. The outcome of therapy is not enhanced by training, education, or years of experience. It may not even matter whether there is a live therapist present!"

"The duo also discussed a 1979 review of 42 studies that compared professional and paraprofessional therapists. Only one component of the study demonstrated superiority of professionals; in 12, paraprofessionals actually helped people more. The remaining 29 found no differences."

"Over the years, the data from the troublesome 1979 review have been reanalyzed using more stringent standards; each time the results have come back stronger for paraprofessionals. One study concluded: "Clients who seek help from paraprofessionals are more likely to achieve resolution of their problem than those who consult professionals."

"Observes Christensen: "With most professions it is very clear there is a specific skill involved, but in psychotherapy it is not clear that the skills of the therapist are any more helpful than the skills of people with life experience in dealing with a problem.""

"A new study of depression treatment by the National Institute of Mental Health puts the success rate--for drugs or psychotherapy--at 19 to 30 percent. "My mother wonders what I get paid for if this is the best I can do," quips Jacobson."

http://www.psycholog...arrassing-story

This post has been edited by stradi: 17 March 2011 - 06:11 PM

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#53 stradi 


Quark
The Eysenck study is here: http://psycnet.apa.o...=1953-05921-001

"Journal of Consulting Psychology, Vol 16(5), Oct 1952, 319-324.
"A survey was made of reports on the improvement of neurotic patients after psychotherapy, and the results compared with the best available estimates of recovery without benefit of such therapy. The figures fail to support the hypothesis that psychotherapy facilitates recovery from neurotic disorder. In view of the many difficulties attending such actuarial comparisons, no further conclusions could be derived from the data whose shortcomings highlight the necessity of properly planned and executed experimental studies into this important field." 40 references. (PsycINFO Database Record © 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

* Digital Object Identifier:
* 10.1037/h0063633"
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#54 PhDwannabe 


Atom
Modern, empirically supported psychotherapeutic treatments did not exist in 1952. You're not criticizing chemistry, you're criticizing alchemy.

Stradi, I've been through all of this with you in other threads. I'm not taking the bait again.
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#55 stradi 


Quark

PhDwannabe said:


Stradi, I've been through all of this with you in other threads. I'm not taking the bait again.



That would be the "bait" that you yourself demanded, no?

"Or we could just leave it there and not defend our assertions. But that would be a stupid." - Phdwannabe
See?


Quote

Modern, empirically supported psychotherapeutic treatments did not exist in 1952. You're not criticizing chemistry, you're criticizing alchemy.


Well there you go. We're agreeing already. Now, what reply do you have to the contention of heavyweight psychologists Andrew Christensen and Neil Jacobson that modern, empirically supported psychotherapeutic treatments did not exist in 1994?

The study 'Who--Or What--Can Do Psychotherapy?' by Andrew Christensen and Neil Jacobson in 'Psychological Science,' January 1994; The contention that therapy delivered by nonprofessionals is just as effective as that performed by professionals.
By Virginia Rutter, published on March 01, 1994

A major study shows that psychotherapy doesn't work very well at all. Butbefore you jump to simple conclusions, consider this: When it comes to matters of the mind, drug therapy isn't any more effective.



The matter is scarcely insignificant. Some 16 million people a year use mental-health services such as psychotherapy. And an estimated 24 million more need help, though many of them get it outside the mental-health system.

Now, two heavyweight psychologists have completed a thorough review of the literature. Their findings are eye-opening--though you won't find the mental-health establishment calling a press conference.

The two psychologists report that years of experience, professional education, or lawful credentials do not determine the success of psychotherapy. Never mind that millions of dollars are spent each year on studies comparing the approaches of experienced therapists. Never mind that the more experienced, more educated therapists charge more money for their services. The outcome of therapy is not enhanced by training, education, or years of experience. It may not even matter whether there is a live therapist present!




http://www.psycholog...arrassing-story

This post has been edited by stradi: 7 May 2011 - 04:15 PM

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#56 stradi 


Quark
IN sum: it was never really clear from your replies when you thought psychology as an empirically supported" science began. You then said it would be stupid of me to not defend my assertions. To one of my defences you stated that empirically supported psychology began after 1952. To the other study (from 1994) you suddenly changed tack and impliedly accused me of "baiting" you for providing the very defense you had requested.

I have no option but to assume you are unable to answer my question.
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#57 petersam 


Lepton
Dopo le droghe come Viagra e Cialis ha rivoluzionato il trattamento di disfunzione sessuale maschio verso la fine degli anni 90, un turbine di neve dei test clinici sono stati condotti in donne nelle speranze che le droghe potrebbero fare lo stessi per fare rivivere l'azionamento di sesso diminuente della donna.

cialis
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