[PAL/SECAM]

Is it possible that religion is causing psychoses ? Is it possible that the same is doing philosophy ? Is it possible that religion is one big false and philosophy contains only nonsenses ?
lately appeared new theory which is connecting religion and philosophy with mental illness, it is describing in text "Religion and philosophy as illness":
"
(the author of the text originates from outside of Anglosaxon lingual area)
...

1. All domain of esoterism, of yoga, of meditation can be counted to the area of primeval religion. It is the same what shamanistic beliefs and practices.

2. These practices consist in the obtainment of the state of trance, in the same way as meditation [frequency of brain waves attains level Theta/Delta 0,5-7 Hz, similarly as during a sleep].
Trance is the state of waking dream, in the same way one defined schizophrenia and in the same way can be defined paranoid psychosis.

3. Thus this domain does not lead to enlightenment, only psychosis, that is to say illness.

4. The illness appeared at the rising of religion, before tens thousands of years, and the illness appeared on following stage of development of religion and at the rising and during the development of philosophy.
..."

about buddhism:
"Buddhism for example consists in obtainment of the state of waking dream, which wrongly, similarly how in old shamanism, is taking as enlightenment; further it has to mean going out and the break up of elements of the mental life - in this it is visible nihilism; in fact the losing of consciousness in the state of nirvana is the same what the losing of consciousness after fall into a sleep, and the only abiding effect is developing paranoid psychosis, the same refers to other forms of yoga (the enlightenment is a fiction)..."

about monotheism and absolutism:
"The rising of monotheism ties in with the person of Akhenaton (Amenhotep IV, pharaoh of Egypt 1353–36 BC), which suffered from Marfan's syndrome and because of disorders caused by this illness modified exaggeratedly and pathologically well-known more early monolatry. Akhenaten was a real founder of monotheism.

Middle East Aryans brought, during incursions, newly arisen monotheism to India. There came into being also the first philosophical version of this abnormal doctrine which we find in Upanishad, this is conception of absolute."

the enlightement is a sick fiction, monotheism is a sick fiction, conception of absolute is a sick fiction etc., many psychoses can have probably their roots in religion, philosophy or humanities - it is worth to remember

[insane_alien]

religion and philosophy do not give rise to psychoses as many psychotics are neither religious nor philosophical.

psychotics may latch on to a particular religion or philosophy but that doesn't mean they are a cause.

co-relation does not equal causation.

as for 1/ yoga and meditation while they may have originated for religious purposes, actually do have benefits.

yoga WILL keep you supple and improve your balance and general fitness, and meditation can be a good way to relax.

2/ a trance state is a SYMPTOM of some forms of psychosis, it is neither limited to psychoses or an abnormal part of life. pretty sure you go into one regularly. particularly if you're bored.

losing balance can be a sign of advanced inner ear problems, or it can also be caused by fatigue or even just good old wasn't paying attention. just because it can be caused by illness doesn't mean that it IS caused by illness.

3/ again, just because it doesn't cause enlightenment doesn't mean it brings illness. from my own experiences meditation and yoga provide tranquility and clear your mind. which is exactly what they were intended and refined to do over thousands of years.

4/there were no reports of severe mental illness in prehistory because of a number of factors
1. those suffering were abandoned not long after birth if they had noticable abnormalities
2. they didn't live very llong as they didn't recieve the care they would now
3. social abnormalities would result in expulsion from the group

your views on this are both narrowminded, wrong in the absolute sense, illogical, offensive and just outright ludicrous.

unless you have a list of studies done on this as long as agiraffes neck your not going to get any real response in the affirmative.

and before we get whole lots of inferences and stuff, i will make my own views on this very clear.

I do not practice any religion
I do meditate
I do yoga
I do have friends that are religious, some in a big way
I do not consider them psychotic
I do not consider religion or philosophy as being a source of psychosis
I do believe that certain psychotics will find religions appealing.
I do not think the OP touched philosophy at all there and seems to be using it as another word for religion.

[PAL/SECAM]

your name insane_alien describes very precisely your state of mind
(I am sure that you really believe that you are from out there)

your views on presented theory are narrowminded, wrong and illogical in the absolute sense, and completely ludicrous

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your views on this

it weren't my views, I only put here some citations

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religion and philosophy do not give rise to psychoses as many psychotics are neither religious nor philosophical.

psychosis is very often basing on religious or philosophical ground and it is established fact by psychiatrists

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I do not practice any religion
I do meditate
I do yoga

understand that if you do yoga you practice religion, as in the article:
"1. All domain of esoterism, of yoga, of meditation can be counted to the area of primeval religion"

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I do have friends that are religious, some in a big way
I do not consider them psychotic

so you should start to do it

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I do not consider religion or philosophy as being a source of psychosis

so you should start to do it

some more from the article:
"5. All field of religion, philosophy (which is in fact an only certain version of religion) and most of the humanities, are self possessed by morbid condition.
...
The rising of philosophy in Greece distinguishes the appearance of the following ill figure, which was Pythagoras who created philosophy as the certain sort of absolutism (that is to say monotheism), so only as certain version of religion. Thenceforward, until today the most of philosophy exists exclusively as the certain sort of religion."

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and before we get whole lots of inferences and stuff

we won't get any more stuff because you are unable to make any normal discussion, maybe somebody not insane will be able to do it

This post has been edited by PAL/SECAM: 4 December 2009 - 03:50 PM

[Phi for All]

PAL/SECAM said:

your name insane_alien describes very precisely your state of mind

your views on presented theory are narrowminded, wrong and illogical in the absolute sense, and completely ludicrous

This is an ad hominem attack. His name is just that, and your claims regarding it are based on false assumptions. Please try to be respectful here. :-)

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it weren't my views, I only put here some citations

Citations with no source. Where did you get them? :confused:

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psychosis is very often basing on religious or philosophical ground and it is established fact by psychiatrists

"Very often" does not equal "all the time".

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understand that if you do yoga you practice religion, as in the article:
"1. All domain of esoterism, of yoga, of meditation can be counted to the area of primeval religion"

This is a Begging the Question fallacy. You can't prove the author is right by quoting the author. Can you prove meditation or yoga is a religion in any other way? They don't seem to fit any definition of religion I'm aware of.

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some more from the article:
"5. All field of religion, philosophy (which is in fact an only certain version of religion) and most of the humanities, are self possessed by morbid condition.
...
The rising of philosophy in Greece distinguishes the appearance of the following ill figure, which was Pythagoras who created philosophy as the certain sort of absolutism (that is to say monotheism), so only as certain version of religion. Thenceforward, until today the most of philosophy exists exclusively as the certain sort of religion."

Please provide a link to this article.

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we won't get any more stuff because you are unable to make any normal discussion, maybe somebody not insane will be able to do it

Again, it's just his name. Personal attacks are not allowed here.

[Sisyphus]

Saying that "philosophy" is nonsense is a philosophical statement. Thus, by your own assertion, you are psychotic, and we would do best to ignore your ramblings.

[insane_alien]

PAL/SECAM said:

your name insane_alien describes very precisely your state of mind
(I am sure that you really believe that you are from out there)

by this logic, you are a television broadcast standard. actually two of them, are you perhaps suffering from multiple personalities then?

doesn't make sense does it? see how names are not necessarily representative of the person?

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it weren't my views, I only put here some citations

then give us the source

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psychosis is very often basing on religious or philosophical ground and it is established fact by psychiatrists

source?

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understand that if you do yoga you practice religion, as in the article:
"1. All domain of esoterism, of yoga, of meditation can be counted to the area of primeval religion"

yea thats a bit circular. i do yoga because its a good stretching exercise. it is not in worship to anything, i do not expect it to appease anything. all i expect it to do is allow me to be more flexible when i go rock climbing. it works.

I will concede that it origonated in religion, but that does not make it a religion in its own right.

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so you should start to do it



so you should start to do it

why? they are perfectly sane people, they recognise right and wrong, they are functional in society the only thing that seperates them out is that the go to meetings with people who have similar views on various days of the week.

i go to a pub quiz on tuesdays with people who have similar outlooks on life to me, does that make pub quizzes a religion?

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some more from the article:
"5. All field of religion, philosophy (which is in fact an only certain version of religion) and most of the humanities, are self possessed by morbid condition.
...
The rising of philosophy in Greece distinguishes the appearance of the following ill figure, which was Pythagoras who created philosophy as the certain sort of absolutism (that is to say monotheism), so only as certain version of religion. Thenceforward, until today the most of philosophy exists exclusively as the certain sort of religion."

if this is your only knowledge of philosophy then you really don't know much about it at all.

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we won't get any more stuff because you are unable to make any normal discussion, maybe somebody not insane will be able to do it

ah, i don't agree with you so therefore i'm insane. this is actually the mindset of many insane people particularly those with sociopathic problems.

[PAL/SECAM]

Phi for all said:

Can you prove meditation or yoga is a religion ?

from the point of view of religious studies it is form of religion, as same as shamanism is form of religion (but this is a scientific point of view not point of view of welders and plumbers )

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Personal attacks are not allowed here.

and insane... have written

insane_alien said:

this is actually the mindset of many insane people particularly those with sociopathic problems.

it is a personal and boorish attack

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if this is your only knowledge of philosophy then you really don't know much about it

your knowledge about philosophy is equal zero

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then give us the source

I have given a source in my first post

Sisyphus said:

Saying that "philosophy" is nonsense is a philosophical statement

it isn't philosophical but psychiatrical statement

you introduced a critique and now allow to answer persons which can support presented theory

[insane_alien]

you gave the source in your first post?

forgive me but i don't see where. i see no author or journal it was published in. "Religion and philosophy as illness" seems to be the title but is insufficient to locate anything.

[Phi for All]

PAL/SECAM said:

from the point of view of religious studies it is form of religion, as same as shamanism is form of religion (but this is a scientific point of view not point of view of welders and plumbers )

So yoga and meditation are only religions if you are studying them from a religious point of view? I could say that tennis (or anything) is a religion if I am studying it from a religious point of view. I have no idea why you think you're being scientific. I also have no idea why you mentioned plumbers and welders.

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and insane... have written

This also is completely incomprehensible. What do you mean here?

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I have given a source in my first post

Your first post mentions "the author of the text" but does not name him, nor does it give a source (such as a link to where I can read if for myself). It's not very scientific if we just take your word for it.

[walkntune]

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psychosis is very often basing on religious or philosophical ground and it is established fact by psychiatrists

Pal/Secam
I see where this idea is trying to come from but it is way off base from the truth in my opinion.I know it's true that many people in insane asylums are born again Christians but its not the fault of what someone believes in for the insanity.
There are many insane people who find healing through belief in God and become stable in their thinking. Support groups work wonders for people struggling with all kinds of issues and most of them work through belief in a higher power.
You have to understand this higher power is found in the heart through surrender. It's a place where only the heart can go. The problem develops once someone has found this place of truth and then falls away. When they try to get back in there mind to a place that was once discovered in their heart they can go insane trying to get back to that place. It is only found through surrender and humility and not by your own efforts.
Bible states(When you are weak, then you are strong) or His strength is found in our weakness.
It sounds like your post is doing the same thing and trying to understand spirituality through efforts of the mind and rationalize a belief that it's the cause of psychosis.
I am not sure what your source is but it sounds like something written to lead people away like cattle.

[PAL/SECAM]

so read this: 'Psychosis and religion' -
http://www.healthboa...sis%2C+religion

[Phi for All]

PAL/SECAM said:

so read this: 'Psychosis and religion' -
http://www.healthboa...sis%2C+religion

These are anecdotal experiences from people who have no psychiatric training or background. We were asking for the author and source of your original statements regarding psychosis and religion, not some people making claims of studies which they themselves provide no source for.

I don't think you can prove that all psychosis has religion as its root cause.

[iNow]

Phi for All said:

I don't think you can prove that all psychosis has religion as its root cause.

While fairness has not been earned as a valid response to the OP due to his general tone, if we were to allow him a response in fairness, we'd need to acknowledge that he never claimed that ALL psychosis has religion at it's root. From what I can tell, the argument is whether or not religion could be A cause of psychosis, not THE cause of psychosis, and in that spirit, a VERY strong case could rather easily be made in support.

[Taktiq]

As someone who works at a mental health center currently, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that this theory is false.

An alcoholic or drug addict undergoing withdrawls can experience florrid psychosis (ie..A/V & tactile hallucinations, distorted thought processes, etc) due to nothing more than the substance leaving the system.

Lack of sleep can also cause psychosis. I know this first hand from being kept awake by my petty officers in boot camp.

Even water intoxication can do it.

[iNow]

So, if all of those simple things can lead to psychosis, why is it that your argument suggests religion cannot?

[insane_alien]

he didn't say that. Taktiq only said the theory that religion is the sole cause and effect of psychosis is wrong. and he is right.

he didn't say that religion couldn't cause psychosis in an individual case, just that it was not responsible for ALL of them.

and keep in mind that PAL/SECAM thinks that I am insane because i regularly do stretching exercises.

[iNow]

insane_alien said:

he didn't say that. Taktiq only said the theory that religion is the sole cause and effect of psychosis is wrong. and he is right.

he didn't say that religion couldn't cause psychosis in an individual case, just that it was not responsible for ALL of them.

and keep in mind that PAL/SECAM thinks that I am insane because i regularly do stretching exercises.

Lol. Understood.

Either way, both you and Phi have now mentioned that the OPs argument suggests ALL psychosis comes from religion. What are you guys seeing that I appear to be missing? I didn't see "ALL" anywhere in the argument, but admit to only paying slight attention to this thread.

[PAL/SECAM]

iNow said:

I didn't see "ALL" anywhere in the argument

of course not only religion is causing psychosis, I don't know from what insane and Phi have taken such strange supposition

Taktiq said:

Even water intoxication can do it.

no man, the author didn't say that only religion is causing psychosis (nb. if even water can do that so maybe can do also religion - if it is so easy to induce a psychosis) ?

insane_alien said:

keep in mind that PAL/SECAM thinks that I am insane because i regularly do stretching exercises

no he was calling you insane because you called yourself insane

This post has been edited by PAL/SECAM: 18 December 2009 - 09:47 PM

[insane_alien]

you said i was insane because i did yoga.

and my name is just that, a name. it bears no relation to my mental health.

if i turn the tables and take your name as literal then you must be insane as you think you are a television broadcast format. really, you need to drop this line of attack as it makes you look bad.

[Sisyphus]

I think the confusion stems from ambiguous English in the OP, which can be interpretted that way. What you should have said is "religion is a cause of psychosis" or even just "religion causes psychosis."

So, out of curiousity, do you believe that I am an ancient Greek hero, writing this from a mountainside in Tartarus?