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Hawking cracks black hole paradox Rate Topic: -----

#21 JaKiri 


Primate

senexa]These are ALL

, folks.


They are [b]NOT
theories.

admiral_ju00 said:

I bet you that our Earth is round, but not a perfect circle. Give me a day or so and I'll give you my proof. Have my Subscription paid and ready till then. :D


I bet you that this is a forum called Science Forums and Debate, situated at http://www.scienceforums.net

Have my million billion pounds ready by monday please.
0

#22 Martin 


Icon
Physics Expert

Quote

Truth in advertising first of all ... I have never liked Hawking...

...Others have been doing far more interesting work, without all the fanfare:

Gravitational vacuum condensate stars
Mazur and Mottola PNAS.2004; 101: 9545-9550.

http://www.space.com...y_030128-1.html

http://www.lanl.gov/...ve/02-035.shtml


I agree with you senexa that it is wise to look at alternative work going on (maybe less visibly). I dont mean "fringe"---my taste runs to the conventional mainstream---but just less publicized. Not everybody has hawkings showmanship of course.

I looked at your links.

Maybe you would like to look at my candidate for a dark horse resolution of the BH info paradox. these are senior mainstream people. Jorge Pullin is the editor/publisher of the American Physics Society's newsletter on gravity and general relativity stuff----it is online and called "Matters of Gravity"

These two papers came out, May 2004 and June 2004:

"No black hole information puzzle in a relational universe"
http://arxiv.org/hep-th/0405183

"Realistic clocks, universal decoherence and the black hole information paradox"
http://arxiv.org/hep-th/0406260

They are not science journalism articles, or popularly presented, but the basic ideas are not so hard and (if you look at them and are curious) I can try to provide the journalistic interpretation for you.

no reporter has picked up on this work---I guess they didnt go out fishing for reporters---but I think it may ultimately represent more of an advance than
what is getting media attention at the moment

A thought: the "information paradox" is really about the passage of time.

black holes evaporate---typically at a very very slow rate

this gives a direction and a kind of irreversibility to the progress of time
whatever pattern or structure falls into the hole would seem to be wiped out----it falls in and then eventually the hole evaporates----finito---nada.

to match this, these guys say, there MAY POSSIBLY be a fundamental very slow rate at which information itself fades---even without the disaster of falling into a black hole!
they look at the idea of a fundamental universal rate that pure quantum states with definite numbers describing them very gradually get muddled and spread out into a statistical mix of nearby states.

the quantum mechanics business is technical---it is just the conventional way people have of talking about their information about the world----sorry if it sounds clunky. But what this is saying really is that the mathematical machinery of Quantum Mechanics is inadequate at present because it lacks a built in mechanism for the very slow decay of information
It says there is a slow decay in nature which is not reflected in the machinery. So somehow a decay term has to be added to the symbolic machinery.

At present, using conventional quantum mechanics, a pure state can evolve with time but it always remains a crisp pure state. there is no very very slow natural decay of information.

Jorge Pullin and his friends make a general argument from looking at black holes, using only fairly general assumptions, that the view of time-evolution must change so that information decays----and then there will be good things! there will be a natural irreversible direction to time, and also the paradox will go away.

although there are some formulas it is basically pretty simple
Loll quantum gravity SciAm
http://www.signallak...uantumJul08.pdf
cosmology SciAm
www.mso.anu.edu.au/~charley/papers/LineweaverDavisSciAm.pdf
http://www.einstein-...logy/index.html
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#23 senexa 


Meson
Thank you very much, Martin. I will gladly do some reading and thinking as you suggest.

It will probably be over the weekend, as I usually drop in here while I'm working and just answer off the top of my head.

This sounds like it needs more thought than that ... so keep an eye on this space and maybe we can dialogue about our thoughts .... and you can answer the questions I know I will have.
:-)
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#24 TheProphet 


Baryon
Hmmm i need to get me a printer fast... All this pappers will give me a unforgetable headacke if i don't... Thanks for the alternative views and as alwyas many good links by Martin and Senexa :)

I like the Gravastar concept! Anyone know about any more information on this theory? links etc to more recent or just more in depth pappers!
0

#25 [Tycho?] 


Organism

Quote

I'm not particularily well versed in black holes but does this open up the possiblity of 2 way travel?

Please excuse my ignorance.




Umm.... what are you talking about?
0

#26 admiral_ju00 


Protist
I guess he's thinking something along the lines of that movie: "Event Horizon"
0

#27 JaKiri 


Primate

admiral_ju00 said:

I guess he's thinking something along the lines of that movie: "Event Horizon"


Black Holes are not a gate to hell.
0

#28 Sayonara³ 


Icon
Doomy doom ♫
To be fair, Event Horizon didn't imply that they were. The black hole was used to open a doorway to "somewhere else" - there wasn't any evidence that it was the only door that could be opened, or that it was a doorway that the black hole somehow "selected" by itself.
The Dictionary is not a technical resource.
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#29 Radical Edward 


Primate
it was a dimension of chaos and pure evil wasn't it?
The Ancient
0

#30 ed84c 


Organism
As far as i understand it hawking radiation refers to a point on the edge of a schwarzchild radius (event Horizon), at which negative energy is ripped from energy allowing the energy to escape in the form of 'hawking radiation'. That sounds a bit far fetched so thats why im not sure its correct is it?

Also i just want to clarify whether or not the roche limit is a point where if you fall inside it you will inevitabley fall into the black hole PROVIDING you make no attempt to escape?

Has anybody else read the book black holes a travelers guide? Fantastic book, very light as well, surprisingly, i urge you all to buy it and read it.........
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#31 JaKiri 


Primate
Hawking radiation has little to do with negative energy, it's just a particle emission from a black hole, which can be explained by either quantum tunnelling or interactions between the event horizon and the quantum foam.
0

#32 [Tycho?] 


Organism

JaKiri said:

Hawking radiation has little to do with negative energy, it's just a particle emission from a black hole, which can be explained by either quantum tunnelling or interactions between the event horizon and the quantum foam.



Would you mind explaining this in a bit more detail? I am curious in that subject.

Edit: well, I just decided to look it up on wikipedia, and the explanation was quite simple. So nevermind.
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#33 RICHARDBATTY 


Molecule
Will the theme tune of the conference be Half man half machine by Goldie Looking Chain. :D (SLAPS OWN WRIST).
How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?.
3.
One to smoke the banana and two to blow up the Giraffe.
Get java, get chatting :D http://www.sciencefo...forums/chat.php
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#34 RICHARDBATTY 


Molecule

RICHARDBATTY said:

Will the theme tune of the conference be Half man half machine by Goldie Looking Chain. :D (SLAPS OWN WRIST).

I would just like to appologize for my last post.
How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?.
3.
One to smoke the banana and two to blow up the Giraffe.
Get java, get chatting :D http://www.sciencefo...forums/chat.php
0

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