[Kylonicus]

I had an idea for how to make cellulose digesting bacteria which could possibly be used in the third world in order to create a limitless(virtually) food supply.


The idea was to grow a huge quantity of cow intestinal bacteria which possesses the cellulase enzyme complex, and grow a huge quantity of human intestinal bacteria, and keep them seperate.

Then take some of the cow intestinal bacteria, kill it, then mix human intestinal bacteria in with the dead cow intestinal bacteria and add cellulose containing products(wood chips, grass ect...).

What I'm thinking is that the bacteria will collect DNA from the cow intestinal bacteria, and by chance some of that DNA will contain the cellulase enzyme complex. Then when it's expressed by 1 or more human intestinal bacteria, because it will be able to digest the cellulose and therefore have a greater food supply, it would have an evolutionary advantage, causing that bacteria to increase in numbers.

Then the bacteria would be put into a sort of nuturing glass vial incubator, and bacteria would be extracted from that and injected into a clean petri dish.

The bacteria would then be killed, and more of the original human intestinal bacteria be put inside with environmental conditions favorable to producing cellulase.

The human intestinal bacteria would collect some of the modified human intestinal bacteria DNA and would thus get cellulase enzyme complex, and due to the evolutionary advantage it would have, would increase it's proliferation vs the others.

This bacteria would then be grown in a glass vial incubator type environment, where massive amounts would proliferate, and then some would be extracted and injected back into a petri dish, where it would be killed, and original human intestinal bacteria would be put in there, repeating the process over again.

The reason this process would occur over and over and over again, is to increase genetic purity of the human intestinal bacteria, in order to minimize possible rejection by the immune system.

Once developed this could easily be distributed throughout the third world, because anyone who carried the cellulose digesting bacteria, after they had produced quite a bit of it, could share it with others.

What do you think?

[Dr. Dalek]

Quote

Anyways, if we had cellulose digesting intestinal bacteria, we would have a virtually infinite supply of food, and it would be easier for us to grow crops, because all we would have to do is grow grass, and we'de have food.

This is how I understand it.
Those bacteria work for bovines na other such animals because they break down certain chemicals that animals like human beings need.
The bovines can use the chemicals broken down, we need them whole.

[Kylonicus]

Then couldn't we use fermentors(thus not applying the bacteria to everything) and then give people supplements in the nutrients that are broken down by the cellulase enzyme complex?

[Skye]

Well I don't know why you wouldn't just use genetic engineering. Our digestive system probably isn't large enough for this to work anyway.

[Kylonicus]

We could use genetic engineering, and we could use fermentors if our digestive systems were inadequate.


The reason I'm asking about would this method work, is at the moment, I do not have means of easily controllable genetic modification at my disposal, and so my means are limited.

Not that I plan on doing this anytime soon(there are a few other things I have to get out of the way, before I can do this).

But just in case a new great depression comes, this would come in handy in alleviating starvation in my home country(while perhaps giving me a slightly raised social status in the process, probably not(because politicians will always claim credit) but it's something to hope for).

I believe strongly in the dire consquences of Peak Oil, and although it may be possible for us to change/adapt, I am not sure if the political will, will be there in time in order to mitigate a disaster.

[Dr. Dalek]

Kylonicus said:

Then couldn't we use fermentors(thus not applying the bacteria to everything) and then give people supplements in the nutrients that are broken down by the cellulase enzyme complex?

This sounds feasible, at least initially.
I'll do some research and get back to you.

[Skye]

First let's worry about modernising the current systems of agriculture, the distribution of agricultural products and the economic systems. Most third world countries have plenty of land if they use it efficiently. They'll need to modernise their systems first so that it could supply this scheme anyway. This idea would cost alot of money. If money weren't a problem then third world countries could just buy food, the first world produces an excess.

[jago25_98]

Who knows if the bacteria would actually `converse` the way you propose. Best try it to find out.

One step at a time. What happens if we get a bag of freshly cut grass and introduce cellulose digesting bacteria from the gut of a cow, for example? This is an easy one to reproduce. Is the result from this something a human can digest?

I found a patent. Someone paid ~£2000/$3000 who believed in a similar idea;
http://www.freepaten...om/4861721.html


Also, investigate Kefir. I will try all this stuff if I get a chance. Wouldn't it be great to be carrying around a bacteria that can digest cellolose on a long journey?

Good thinking.

[Mr Skeptic]

jago25_98 said:

One step at a time. What happens if we get a bag of freshly cut grass and introduce cellulose digesting bacteria from the gut of a cow, for example? This is an easy one to reproduce. Is the result from this something a human can digest?

Actually I think it was fungi that are the kings of cellulose digestion. Check out mushroom farms -- they turn mulch or logs into edible (and tasty!) mushrooms. Fungiculture

[Moontanman]

Instead of trying to engineer new bacteria maybe the bacteria that Gorillas use to digest their food, they are apes too and are completely vegetarian. The huge pot bellies is to allow them to ferment their shredded vegetable matter.

[jago25_98]

I'm halfway to achieving the same goal but in a different way, using Algae.

The thing is, both Algae, Kefir and other specific bacteria for this goal need an aerobic environment. If you put the lid on algae and up the nutients you can produce a toxic algae. If you do the same with Kefir you change the environment, reducing oxygen and helping the bacteria you don't want. If you then eat this, you'll get gas... or worse! Trust me, I know!

As a result of this it's quite hard to transport Algae and Kefir.

So I've been thinking hard about how to design something to help transport it.
I have a partially working solution - a one way valve... but this doesn't let in enough air for the culture to survive for more than a day... and it effects the taste, taking a while to recover.

What is required is a vessel that can hold a liquid but truely keeping it oxygenated with the air outside. How can we design something like that?

I looked at goretex but then relised that's the opposite of what we need and it didn't seem to work in reverse.
The next idea was a 3D rotational sphere, able to rotate in all 3 planes... however that wouldn't work against vibrations.

Any thoughts on how to design this thing?

[jorge1907]

I'd say it's pretty sophomoric - presuming simple transtions and "huge" quantities are possible.
Huge quantities of rumen microrogansimss (and they're not just bacteria) - killed - somehow their DNA got into human intestinal bacteria and transformed to establish that capability - multiple time. Apparently the end product is some highly modified form of human intenstinal flora that would be maintained and digest cellulose all the way to simple sugar - with no detrimental effect on other normal flora or the host.

This post has been edited by jorge1907: 31 March 2011 - 12:40 PM

[CaptainPanic]

jago25_98, on 29 March 2011 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm halfway to achieving the same goal but in a different way, using Algae.

The thing is, both Algae, Kefir and other specific bacteria for this goal need an aerobic environment. If you put the lid on algae and up the nutients you can produce a toxic algae. If you do the same with Kefir you change the environment, reducing oxygen and helping the bacteria you don't want. If you then eat this, you'll get gas... or worse! Trust me, I know!

As a result of this it's quite hard to transport Algae and Kefir.

So I've been thinking hard about how to design something to help transport it.
I have a partially working solution - a one way valve... but this doesn't let in enough air for the culture to survive for more than a day... and it effects the taste, taking a while to recover.

What is required is a vessel that can hold a liquid but truely keeping it oxygenated with the air outside. How can we design something like that?

I looked at goretex but then relised that's the opposite of what we need and it didn't seem to work in reverse.
The next idea was a 3D rotational sphere, able to rotate in all 3 planes... however that wouldn't work against vibrations.

Any thoughts on how to design this thing?

You need a very large surface area to get enough air in (there is no other way). That means you have 2 options:
1. A very large flat reactor (basically something like a pond).
2. A compressor. You have to pump air in, and the air then bubbles through the liquid. Alternatively, you can spray the liquid in the air.

Main topic
Regarding GM bacteria for our own digestive system: has it occurred to any of you that our stomach / intestins and the bacteria are in a system together? Change the bacteria, you have to change the stomach and the intestins too! I think it simply cannot, and should not, be done.
Anyway, we don't have a food problem yet, and we will have an energy problem before the food problem.

[CharonY]

This is a bloody old thread. Note that for the effective use of grass or wood as food source for higher eukaryotes (including arthropods) a consortium of bacteria and protists are involved.

[Basi]

This would never work unless you genetically (or surgically/physically) changed the structures of our stomachs as well as the natural bacterium that exists in it.

Not only that but we would have to seek nutrients elsewhere because we would be lacking several amino acids necessary for human life.

[tomatohorse]

If I read the OP's idea correctly, major modification of the digestive tract would not be necessary because we would be using our already existing bacteria.... just modifying their DNA so that they can also digest cellulose. It's not like we'd be introducing a whole new species of bacteria into our guts. Same species, just with an extra strand of DNA that lets them digest cellulose.

I think this idea is intriguing... can't believe it's never been tried. Or has it and we just don't know about it?

Basi, on 27 May 2011 - 07:18 PM, said:

This would never work unless you genetically (or surgically/physically) changed the structures of our stomachs as well as the natural bacterium that exists in it.

Not only that but we would have to seek nutrients elsewhere because we would be lacking several amino acids necessary for human life.

Why would we need to seek nutrients elsewhere? I don't see where we'd be lacking amino acids by adding capability to our digestive bacteria...

[CharonY]

The efficiency is incredibly low, especially if only bacteria are involved. In most cellulose feeding animals a more complex system including flagellates are needed. And then the hole system needs adaptations to the digestive tract after all, to create an environment where cellulose degradation can occur. And even then it is often not terribly efficient. Horses are known to have terrible colics and they are not very efficient feeders. Cows are much more effective, but they have a very complex digestive system to allow that.
Chances are that if you introduced (even in relatively high titers) the GMOs, they will be outcompeted very quickly.

This post has been edited by CharonY: 9 February 2012 - 11:36 PM