[The Peon]

Norman Alber said:

Hopefully this is useful because I read posts on cross mating. Are not most animals of closely similar color and so easily directed to the species mate? An interesting counterexample we live with is horses. Do they care about such different colorations? (You know what they say in the operating room: they're all pink on the inside.)

If you are typing of what I am thinking you are typing about, the process of imprinting takes an important role in sexual orientation. For instance, when younger, your brain defines what is sexually attractive to it. Thus, we tend to like and think of things which look "human" as cute. That is why when someone sees a little chihuahuas face they go "awww isnt it cute!" But when you see a squids face you are like "ewww." I dont think it has to do with color but more with structure.

[Norman Albers]

I think most species don't have to deal with it, and I gather horses don't care much but I would like to hear from a horse person if they have color pecking orders, say.

[Milken]

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OK I will do that if you promise never to return to this thread or trolling ever again. Thank you, your opinion on me is noted. Bye! *insert wavy smiley*

Back on subject, I was wondering another thing about the human condition. Do any populations other than caucasoids exhibit large amounts of body hair? From all the pics of gene pools I've reviewed from around the world, it seems that caucasoids and some middle easterners are the only population to exhibit large amounts of body hair, on the chest and back area. Some gene pools in the US exhibit this as well but my guess would be from inherited caucasoid genes. Could this be a form of cold adaptation? I may be wrong in this instance though, so I would like some feedback on this.

I'm back! None of this really bothers me, you were the one to bring to this kind of a tone. The discussion can go up or down, doesn't matter

Well Modern-day middle easterns are more likely to have a little caucasion somewhere than ancient ones. My understand is that most ethnic groups may become "hairy" but as you've surmised it's definitely associated with cold weather. In tropical groups, it's exceedingly rare to nonexistent. A "hairy" African/other tropical group is possible, empirically. Furthermore, local groups on the periphery may have no "hariy" members.

[mattbimbo]

hi peon,

with all your expertise on this subject can you give me an estimate of how frequently N-person and H-person would have to have successfully produced offspring for there to be a significant N-gene legacy in caucasoids?

[mattbimbo]

i did find this link related to chromosome number and mating
http://http:www.gate...voEvidence.html

i would like more examples, and a mechanistic explanation of the Prezwalski/domestic horse hybridization event in relation to sequence similarity and the formation of trivalent chromosomes at meiosis, but this is a bit of a plus for you Peon <semi-smilie>.

so do you think there were singles bars in N-times?

[The Peon]

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i did find this link related to chromosome number and mating
http://http:www.gate...voEvidence.html

i would like more examples, and a mechanistic explanation of the Prezwalski/domestic horse hybridization event in relation to sequence similarity and the formation of trivalent chromosomes at meiosis, but this is a bit of a plus for you Peon <semi-smilie>.
so do you think there were singles bars in N-times?

I never claimed to be an expert. I am making abstract observances to supplement the allready credible scientists who make the same claim I am presenting in this thread. And I am getting tired of your condescending overtones. Take your questions to the genetic forums, or I will ignore you like I am ignoring Milken. Lack of education in a perticular subject does not mean lack of intelligence overall.

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but this is a bit of a plus for you Peon <semi-smilie>.

:rolleyes:


In regards to the body hair, I brought up that up because its yet another caucasoid trait that appears to be cold adapted that the mongoloids do not have. And as stated earlier, according to current out of Africa theory, mongoloids inhabited a cold climate for much longer than the caucasoids. Thus its yet another piece of physical evidence for trace genes in that gene pool from the Neanderthals, as Neanderthals would have most likely had large amounts of cold adapted body hair.

[mattbimbo]

Peon, chill out <smily>. i think you have discussed this issue seriously and intelligently. i had never thought of its genetic aspects before, and now i have. it seems you had, but then it seemed you hadn't. if you don't know whether it is a 'one in a billion' chance or not of successful interbreeding, despite all your reading and analysis, that's ok and you can pass the buck if you want.

[The Peon]

mattbimbo]Peon, chill out <smily>. i think you have discussed this issue seriously and intelligently. i had never thought of its genetic aspects before, and now i have. it seems you had, but then it seemed you hadn said:

'one in a billion'[/B'] chance or not of successful interbreeding, despite all your reading and analysis, that's ok and you can pass the buck if you want.

On one hand you tell me to chill out, then in the next you tell me it's ok to pass the buck. Please review your language it's pretty condescending. Perhaps at this point I am being overly touchy, but to be honest after being told to have sex with a monkey, then being told it would be a "bit of a plus" if I knew something, and finally being told "it's ok.. you can pass the buck" please forgive me if I reply in a hostile way. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned before, your claims may or may not be valid. Ask a geneticist. I am not one and have no idea the chance of the two different types of genomes ability to create a hybrid. What I do know is that:

A> Neanderthals and Sapiens lived side by side for 6000-10000 years, providing plenty of time for lots of sex.

B> Credible modern day scientists admit the possibility of hybridization to occur, just as others deny it. I don't see how they would just brush off such strong and clear evidence they could not reproduce due to some chromosomal differences. In fact, the scientists who deny the hybrid possibility base there conclusions on mtDNA, and as an article I posted in an earlier page showed, this is a possibly flawed reason for rejection. Also, according to my understanding (I may be wrong), genetics is in its infancy as a science and much more is to be learned about this spectacular and powerful field of science.

C> An apparant Hybrid skeleton was found in Portugal.

D> Many genes such as the Ginger Gene are highly unlikely to have been mutated recently, and it is more probobal that it was an inherited neanderthalic gene.

E> Mongoloids, according to the most currently accepted theorys have been in colder climates much longer than caucasoids, yet they do not exhibit even closely the cold adapted features caucasoids have. This could be due to inheriting Neanderthalic genes, which was a species of hominid that lived in the icy fringes of Europe for over 200,000 years or more.

Thus my personal conclusion is that it is highly likely, dare I say certain, that some Neanderthalic genes however minute were passed into the caucasoid gene pool.

[mattbimbo]

as regards the legacy of N-genes in caucasoids i will keep an open-and-infantile mind.

don't all hypotheses have holes in them?

i am, like you, in two minds about the mitochondrial data. i think your criticism of how this data is interpreted is valid. it is considerably easier to isolate sufficient amounts of intact mitochondrial DNA for sequence analysis compared to genomic DNA, this practical point biases the data - nevermind the interpretation of the data. likewise, the considerable paucity of data and difficulty, more ethical than technical, of performing hybridization expts in mammals also creates a bias.

can anyone think of any expts which would overwhelmingly demonstrate the legacy of N-genes in caucasoids? the reason i ask this question is that i am most curious about whether it is in our ability as scientists to find an answer.
one day someone may recreate germ cells from N-man and N-woman and see if they can fertilise or be fertilised. however even if this was done, it wouldn't be the final experiment because there are a range of immunological factors that determine fertility in vivo and also they wouldn't measure the survival fitness of the offspring. there are more obvious experiments i could think of, but these would be flawed too.

[Moonquake]

So they remained side by side for 6000-10000 years and remained two completely distinct types of homonid for all this time dispite being able to interbreed?

[The Peon]

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as regards the legacy of N-genes in caucasoids i will keep an open-and-infantile mind.

don't all hypotheses have holes in them?

i am, like you, in two minds about the mitochondrial data. i think your criticism of how this data is interpreted is valid. it is considerably easier to isolate sufficient amounts of intact mitochondrial DNA for sequence analysis compared to genomic DNA, this practical point biases the data - nevermind the interpretation of the data. likewise, the considerable paucity of data and difficulty, more ethical than technical, of performing hybridization expts in mammals also creates a bias.

can anyone think of any expts which would overwhelmingly demonstrate the legacy of N-genes in caucasoids? the reason i ask this question is that i am most curious about whether it is in our ability as scientists to find an answer.
one day someone may recreate germ cells from N-man and N-woman and see if they can fertilise or be fertilised. however even if this was done, it wouldn't be the final experiment because there are a range of immunological factors that determine fertility in vivo and also they wouldn't measure the survival fitness of the offspring. there are more obvious experiments i could think of, but these would be flawed too.

I am excited with new genetic techniques that are coming along. I am sure they can aid in the discovery of the genes I believe to exist in the caucasoid gene pool.

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can anyone think of any expts which would overwhelmingly demonstrate the legacy of N-genes in caucasoids?

I believe all the physical evidence before us is overwhelming in my eyes. As you mentioned, which I took as an insult before thinking it over, we need to keep an infantile mind in some degrees. Often major scientific discoveries were made by people who have untainted open minds about new scientific ideas. I am trying to deduce my hypothesis (and the hypothesis of others) based on raw physical evidence. Although its a semi-flawed way to create an assumption, I think the evidence is pretty logical to a large degree. As mentioned before, assuming that the out of Africa theory is correct, I find it perticularly odd that such a young race as caucasoids are (30,000-40,000 years old) have adapted so well to there cold enviroment compared to the mongoloids (60,000-possibly 120,000 year old) who have been in a cold enviroment for a much longer period of time.

In fact, I dare say that other than superficial differences like shape of eyes, mongoloids have only adapted the white skin for a colder environment. Mongoloids still have dark hair and eyes, broad negroid noses, and a slender frame. This is very consistent with there Negroid ancestors. Caucasoids exhibit strikingly cold adapted features, the extreme case being of course the ginger gene, which produces orange hair, green eyes and freckly skin. Thus it is my assumption by deductive logic that Caucasoids inherited a genetic legacy from Neanderthals, thus giving them a "boost" in cold adaptation over there mongoloid and negroid ancestors.

But in the end of course, whats overwhelming evidence to one (me), could be a brush off evidence to another (Milken perhaps?). So evidence itself is all subjectional. One thing is certain, with time we will certainly know the true answer, that I am personally certain of.

Moonquake said:

So they remained side by side for 6000-10000 years and remained two completely distinct types of homonid for all this time dispite being able to interbreed?

Well the debate is if it were possible to interbreed. With current genetic techniques we cannot tell if a hybrid could be produced, at least a fertile one. But it is my reasoning as presented above that it was highly possible, almost a certainty that a few hybrids were produced who then were able to pass on some of the Neanderthal genetic legacy into the local gene pool which then seeped into the greater Caucasoid gene pool over time.

Edit: I just thought of one more thing... this of course means nothing unless you want it to though. Neanderthals reigned from 200,000 to 30,000 years ago. Homo Sapien left Africa roughly 160,000 years ago. Sapien arrived in Europe around 40,000 years ago. Sapiens and Neanderthals branched off from a common ancestor roughly 200-250,000 years ago. Lets do the math. Neanderthals had no contact with there direct sapien cousins for about 150,000 years estimated. On that same note, Negroid Sapiens have not had contact with there descendants from most other gene pools for roughly that same amount of time, and in many degrees if you look at pure blooded Africans and pure blooded Native Americans for instance, you see the same amount of time has passed between potential sexual contact as has passed between sapiens and neanderthals. But oddly enough, a Negroid from Africa can reproduce perfectly healthy and fertile offspring with a Native American with just as much success as a Negroid with a Negroid, or a Native American with another Native American.

In conclusion, Negroids have been out of sexual contact with other Sapien gene pools just as long as Neanderthals were out of contact with there African cousins. Yet we make the assumption that Neaderthals and Sapiens could not have interbred even though Negroids can produce viable offspring with any of there descendents to this day.

[mattbimbo]

maybe there will be evidence in the gene pool, but this evidence would only be valid with the analysis of genetic material from fossils. if N-genes are found in present day caucasoid genetic material there will always be the counter-argument of horizontal/lateral gene transfer. i won't bring up the ginger gene in this context, the mutations only occur in single codons, instead i will just point out that ginger is not limited too caucasoids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair

[The Peon]

mattbimbo]maybe there will be evidence in the gene pool, but this evidence would only be valid with the analysis of genetic material from fossils. if N-genes are found in present day caucasoid genetic material there will always be the counter-argument of horizontal/lateral gene transfer. i won said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair[/URL]

Most interesting. Although I do not think the examples cited are ginger gene inheritants. Having reddish hair is different than the full blown orange hair, green eyes and freckly face which I doubt any of the regions spoken of exhibit. Not to mention, Neanderthals ranged far into the middle east as well, so it would be understandable to see some of the genetic influence in these areas as well. But again, I am no geneticist. I merely have a basic understanding of how genes work and of the ginger gene itself.

[Moonquake]

http://www.mc.marico...newspecies.html

[Milken]

The Peon said:

I am trying to deduce my hypothesis (and the hypothesis of others) based on raw physical evidence. Although its a semi-flawed way to create an assumption, I think the evidence is pretty logical to a large degree. As mentioned before, assuming that the out of Africa theory is correct, I find it perticularly odd that such a young race as caucasoids are (30,000-40,000 years old) have adapted so well to there cold enviroment compared to the mongoloids (60,000-possibly 120,000 year old) who have been in a cold enviroment for a much longer period of time.

So one group of people adapted physically 2-4 times faster than another. It's only odd because the assumption is that they're a cacuasion(pale skinned) group of people. The times frames are very small for this much evolution to take place.

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In fact, I dare say that other than superficial differences like shape of eyes, mongoloids have only adapted the white skin for a colder environment.

I'm not quite sure exactly what group you're referring too. But Mongoloids are between are a little lighter than Arabs and significantly darker than Asians. It also depends on what time frame you're referring too.

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Mongoloids still have dark hair and eyes, broad negroid noses, and a slender frame. This is very consistent with there Negroid ancestors. Caucasoids exhibit strikingly cold adapted features, the extreme case being of course the ginger gene, which produces orange hair, green eyes and freckly skin. Thus it is my assumption by deductive logic that Caucasoids inherited a genetic legacy from Neanderthals, thus giving them a "boost" in cold adaptation over there mongoloid and negroid ancestors.

It's possible they got something from them who knows. Here above we have a solid description of typical Negroid features, minus a few others. The the obvious broad nose of Africans is mentioned.
The Standford scientist Peon quoted admitted they had wide nasal cavities but guessed it was an adaptation to cold weather. I found a source showing that modern caucasions have a narrow nasal cavity and obviously usually have narrow noses. N-Man came from Africa and quite conceivable not caucasion since not known caucasion group has had broad noses like N-man.
Especially in light of N-Man being as far south as Middle East. A slight history background can assert the closeness between Arab and African descent.

The Peon said:

But in the end of course, whats overwhelming evidence to one (me), could be a brush off evidence to another (Milken perhaps?). So evidence itself is all subjectional. One thing is certain, with time we will certainly know the true answer, that I am personally certain of.

Unless I missed something the main evidence I remember for asserting Caucasion was location and it still doesn't make sense in light of the short time they were there and admittedly African.

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But oddly enough, a Negroid from Africa can reproduce perfectly healthy and fertile offspring with a Native American with just as much success as a Negroid with a Negroid, or a Native American with another Native American.

Odd? Only if we're not all the same race, human.

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In conclusion, Negroids have been out of sexual contact with other Sapien gene pools just as long as Neanderthals were out of contact with there African cousins. Yet we make the assumption that Neaderthals and Sapiens could not have interbred even though Negroids can produce viable offspring with any of there descendents to this day.

I do not really have an opinion here. I think it was possible if they wanted to, but sexual selection could have been a factor like it is today with people usually "mating", "doing it", or "getting busy" with people of the similar ethnicity. If they interacted, certainly someone would have hooked up atleast once.

[mattbimbo]

i looked up a relevant paper on M1CR polymorphism, ie the red gene:
http://http:www.pubm...bmedid=10733465
this paper has been used by some as evidence of N-C hybrids.

the paper will take me another reading or two, but on first browsing it doesn't really point in favour of any hypothesis. in fact it plays down its results and conclusions.

[The Peon]

Milken said:

bla bla bla same banter over and over...

Good bye Milken. Your points are allready noted and I dont think anyone cares. This is a science forum. You lost your credibility in any scientific debate in my opinion when you claimed Neanderthals were Sapiens with rickets. Try posting in Answers In Genesis forums. They might care about some pastors opinion from a predarwin era.

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i looked up a relevant paper on M1CR polymorphism, ie the red gene:
http://http:www.pubm....medid=10733465
this paper has been used by some as evidence of N-C hybrids.

the paper will take me another reading or two, but on first browsing it doesn't really point in favour of any hypothesis. in fact it plays down its results and conclusions.

Link appears dead. Could you verify it and repost? Would like to read it. I actually dont recall where I read about the ginger gene itself, I merely recall the information regarding it. I do remember though that it was on a universitys website. I wish I could find the original article I read as it was a great piece of work written in a nuetral way towards the whole Neanderthal hybrid issue.

[mattbimbo]

Harding RM, Healy E, Ray AJ, Ellis NS, Flanagan N, Todd C, Dixon C,
Sajantila A, Jackson IJ, Birch-Machin MA, Rees JL.
Evidence for variable selective pressures at MC1R.
Am J Hum Genet. 2000 Apr;66(4):1351-61. Epub 2000 Mar 24.
PMID: 10733465
http://www.pubmedcen...bmedid=10733465
or
http://www.journals....391/991391.html

[The Peon]

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Harding RM, Healy E, Ray AJ, Ellis NS, Flanagan N, Todd C, Dixon C,
Sajantila A, Jackson IJ, Birch-Machin MA, Rees JL.
Evidence for variable selective pressures at MC1R.
Am J Hum Genet. 2000 Apr;66(4):1351-61. Epub 2000 Mar 24.
PMID: 10733465
http://www.pubmedcen...bmedid=10733465
or
http://www.journals....391/991391.html

Nice! Thank you for posting that information. Although I dont understand some parts of it. Are you sure the gene in question, MC1R is referring to the "ginger gene?" Just want to be sure..

[mattbimbo]

yep Peon. one of the authors Ian Jackson, a scot i presume, possibly a ginger haired one too, is big in the field of M1CR, his homepage is
http://www.hgu.mrc.a...dissection.html
this page should help you understand how M1CR functions.

i am not sure which academics have taken the above paper and used it for evidence of N-C hybrids...but it appears in a number of non-academics internet sites have, including:
http://www.futurepun...ves/000309.html
http://p221.ezboard....topicID=3.topic

i am wondering who has reinterpreted this data and turned it into evidence for N-C hybrids.