iNow

60,000 Nazis Marched in Poland this weekend

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iNow    4577

No, that’s not some black and white news headline from World War II. It happened, this weekend, one month away from the advanced year of 2018. 

What do you think of this trend? Are there sufficient nonviolent means to stop it? Will it take force and will things to continue to get worse before getting better?

http://www.newsweek.com/poland-nationalist-rally-neo-nazi-slogans-calls-islamic-holocaust-draws-708984

 

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HallsofIvy    52
9 minutes ago, iNow said:

No, that’s not some black and white news headline from World War II. It happened, this weekend, one month away from the advanced year of 2018. 

What do you think of this trend? Are there sufficient nonviolent means to stop it? Will it take force and will things to continue to get worse before getting better?

http://www.newsweek.com/poland-nationalist-rally-neo-nazi-slogans-calls-islamic-holocaust-draws-708984

 

You give a single example and call it a "trend".  What "trend" are you talking about and what evidence do you have that it is a "trend"?

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koti    140

I didn't want to post a thread on this as I feel very ashamed of this. Unfortunately there is no nonviolent way to stop this, currently there isn't any way to stop this. The so called right wing party "PiS - Prawo i Sprawiedliwość (translation: Law and Justice) has essentially erased in the last 2 years (2 year anniversary propaganda running on TV as I'm writing this)  the foundations of a democratic nation - 2 weeks after they were elected they joined the functions of the general prosecutor and the minister of justice and let a sick, deranged guy have the job - he's loyal to Kaczyński who essentially created a crawling dictatorship. They fired all the judges from the supreme court and replaced them. They implemented dozens of legislative laws enabling them to have absolute power over the opposition. They are also extremely effective at populist propaganda, they implemented a "500+" program giving 500 pln for every child in the country (it's a deformed legislation resulting in various types of pathology) The bottom line is that the 60K people marched in Warsaw on Saturday on the Polish independance day (we regained independance in 1918) and it ended up being a Nazi march. Te government media is not really condemning this, the government is openly not condemning this but the opposition is going nuts so that's a good thing. There is no way currently to stop this, Kaczyński has indirect but absolute power over courts, supreme courts, the constitutional tribunal, police, etc. People do not seem like they're going to wake up any time soon so it's either the EU which will enforce sanctions or for me - a passport change which we are considering with my wife and 18 month old son.

Edited by koti
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iNow    4577

I’d rather not get bogged down in semantics. If you’d rather call it something other than a trend, please go ahead. 

I’m referring primarily to the increase in frequency and crowd size of openly Nazi events. 

Youre surely aware of events in the US with the presidential election in 2016 and Support from KKK groups for the current president, marchers in Charlottesville, Philadelphia, across the southern US with the confederate statue debate, and related activity across all of Europe.

Whether or not it’s a trend, it’s more common and gatherings far larger today than yesterday and my questions are focused there .

 

X-posted with Koti

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StringJunky    1511

Nations are made up of disparate groups across a Right-Left spectrum and if the centre-line moves too far one way or the other, the more extreme elements of the losing side are expressed.

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koti    140

To be fair, it wasn’t 60 thousand regular nazis marching, majority of them were dumb, blinded morons convinced that they’re marching in the name of patriotism. It doesn’t change the fact that regular nazis were invited from Italy, Hungary giving straight up KKK style speaches during the event. All on our indepence day...it’s like our 4th of July. F disgrace.

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EdEarl    653

I've heard that populist parties have recently become more powerful, and their agendas are often anti-immigration and tend to support police crackdowns. These parties seem to be a reaction to the current corporate ruling class, oligarchs, who are increasing national debts and giving themselves tax breaks and crony contracts. Poland seems to follow this trend. I'm afraid the path to rational politics will be slowed by stupidity and many will die.

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StringJunky    1511
2 minutes ago, koti said:

To be fair, it wasn’t 60 thousand regular nazis marching, majority of them were dumb, blinded morons convinced that they’re marching in the name of patriotism. It doesn’t change the fact that regular nazis were invited from Italy, Hungary giving straight up KKK style speaches during the event. All on our indepence day...it’s like our 4th of July. F disgrace.

It would probably be  better to say '60,000 nationalists'.

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dimreepr    647
22 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

"Welcome to the NEW age."

There' nothing new about it, as long as poverty exists and the rich refuse to share, history will repeat.

The greater the inequity the greater the sense of injustice the greater the poor protest; the greater the protest the greater the fear the greater the walls of the rich. It's a matter of numbers, at some point, a critical mass will breach the walls.

Edited by dimreepr

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Raider5678    28
Just now, dimreepr said:

There' nothing new about it, as long as poverty exists and the rich refuse to share, history will repeat.

The greater the inequality the greater the sense of injustice the greater the poor protest; the greater the protest the greater the fear the greater the walls of the rich. It's a matter of numbers, at some point, a critical mass will breach the walls.

It was meant to be irony.

 

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Phi for All    4814
37 minutes ago, EdEarl said:

I've heard that populist parties have recently become more powerful, and their agendas are often anti-immigration and tend to support police crackdowns. These parties seem to be a reaction to the current corporate ruling class, oligarchs, who are increasing national debts and giving themselves tax breaks and crony contracts.

Another trend has been for the corporate oligarchs to latch onto a populist movement, fund it and take over its message, then warp it to their own agenda, like the Kochs did with the Tea Party. The real winners here are the for-profit entertainment outlets people look to for factual information. Inflammatory events are not only driving wedges between formerly benign segments of our societies, they're driving views and clicks and ad dollars for corporations pretending to shed equal light on all stories.

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Raider5678    28
1 minute ago, Phi for All said:

Another trend has been for the corporate oligarchs to latch onto a populist movement, fund it and take over its message, then warp it to their own agenda, like the Kochs did with the Tea Party. The real winners here are the for-profit entertainment outlets people look to for factual information. Inflammatory events are not only driving wedges between formerly benign segments of our societies, they're driving views and clicks and ad dollars for corporations pretending to shed equal light on all stories.

Maybe we should do something about it.

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dimreepr    647
4 minutes ago, Raider5678 said:

It was meant to be irony.

 

I know, but it was a convenient platform.

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koti    140

In the case of Poland its neither the corporate oligarchs nor the poverty. We have the fastest growing economy in the region (at least we did 2 years ago before the assholes took over) The 28 years since Wałęsa in 1989 were incredibly benneficial, we essentially became an equal part of Europe both economically and mentally (the middle class formed) The thing with us is that we seem to be unable to exist peacfuly for prolonged periods of time and we tend to generate conflict (internally in this case) where theres no need to and secondly, the church is having a huge impact on the lower middle class hence the populist, primitive agendas of the ruling party to get elected and reelected. And it all works unfortunately.

if you would want to go down to the very root of these problems you will find pathological, nationalist views combined with xenophobia and racism. Same principle as everywhere I guess.

Edited by koti
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dimreepr    647
2 minutes ago, koti said:

In the case of Poland its neither the corporate oligarchs nor the poverty. We have the fastest growing economy in the region (at least we did 2 years ago) The 28 years since Wałęsa in 1989 were incredibly benneficial, we essentially became an equal part of Europe both economically and mentally (the middle class formed) The thing with us is that we seem to be unable to exist peacfuly for prolonged periods of time and we tend to generate conflict (internally in this case) where there no need to and secondly, the church is having a huge impact on the lower middle class hence the populist, primitive agendas of the ruling party to get elected and reelected. And it all works unfortunately.

I'll bow to your greater knowledge, just one question, why did so many seek work elsewhere in Europe?

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koti    140
5 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

I'll bow to your greater knowledge, just one question, why did so many seek work elsewhere in Europe?

The „Law & Justice” party won the elections once before in 2005 or 2006. 2 milion Poles emigrated mostly to the UK after that.

Edited by koti

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dimreepr    647
5 minutes ago, koti said:

The „Law & Justice” party won the elections once before in 2005 or 2006. 2 milion Poles emigrated to the UK and other countries after that.

What about the "Law & Justice" party inspired such an exodus?

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Phi for All    4814
13 minutes ago, koti said:

if you would want to go down to the very root of these problems you will find pathological, nationalist views combined with xenophobia and racism. Same principle as everywhere I guess.

I find it too coincidental that the extreme-right mob mentality seems to favor the establishment of law and order, which also plays right into the hands of those who want to control chaotic situations for profit. Haven't we all remarked recently on how the masses seem to be electing the absolute worst leaders possible for them? In the US, so many poor Trump supporters are rabid for the man who is taking away their healthcare and not replacing it, putting more of a tax burden on them so the wealthy can have more wealth, and removing the regulations that keep their air and water clean.

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dimreepr    647
14 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I find it too coincidental that the extreme-right mob mentality seems to favor the establishment of law and order, which also plays right into the hands of those who want to control chaotic situations for profit. Haven't we all remarked recently on how the masses seem to be electing the absolute worst leaders possible for them? In the US, so many poor Trump supporters are rabid for the man who is taking away their healthcare and not replacing it, putting more of a tax burden on them so the wealthy can have more wealth, and removing the regulations that keep their air and water clean.

Indeed but poverty is a relative term, so the walls of fear is also relative; the frog in cold water that increases in temperature until it boils is a good analogy here; in reality, at some point, it will jump out.

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koti    140
37 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

What about the "Law & Justice" party inspired such an exodus?

A lot of reasons... including petrol prices going through the roof in Poland at that time which was cause by the moronic government + global oil prices going through the roof, Ireland offering good job opportunities to Poles at that time, people being generally pissed in Poland and probably at least a dozen more reasons. One also cannot ignore the fact that having an average paying job in Poland will not let you live as comfortable as an average job in the UK will let you live - that's I guess the main obvious reason for emigration in general - everywhere. This causes the fact that there are significant amounts of emigrants in Poland from the Ukraine, Romania, Asian countries and recently a lot from poor African countries and India - and this contributes to xenophobia, Poland is unfortunately not used to diversity.

 

36 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

I find it too coincidental that the extreme-right mob mentality seems to favor the establishment of law and order, which also plays right into the hands of those who want to control chaotic situations for profit. Haven't we all remarked recently on how the masses seem to be electing the absolute worst leaders possible for them? In the US, so many poor Trump supporters are rabid for the man who is taking away their healthcare and not replacing it, putting more of a tax burden on them so the wealthy can have more wealth, and removing the regulations that keep their air and water clean.

I don't find it too coincidental, I think that's unfortunately how the world works. It pisses me off and makes me bite my nails that we have to be obedient to our deranged democracies because we haven't came up with anything better.  We have our own Mike Pence's and dozens of other similarities. iNow's premise that there's a trend is extremely evident when you compare the US and Poland. There were loud voices in Poland after Trump got elected that "PiS" won in the US as well (your POTUS elections were a few months later)
This trend is evident also in other European countries...dangerously similar mechanisms to those of Germany in late 1920's to mid 1930's are showing with the far right being more and more present. We have to keep in mind that in the case of Nazi Germany these mechanisms took quite a few years to grow into the Nazi mayhem of Hitler, the longer the process the less visible it is and it's less likely to spot for a nonobservant man - this is how it went down in Germany. This goes along with the obviously less dangerous but still pathological "far left" movements. There is no middle ground, more people all over the world seem to loose their selves into the extreme sides of politics and loosing common sense on the way. 

Edited by koti
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dimreepr    647
6 minutes ago, koti said:

A lot of reasons... including petrol prices going through the roof in Poland at that time which was cause by the moronic government + global oil prices going through the roof, Ireland offering good job opportunities to Poles at that time, people being generally pissed in Poland and probably at least a dozen more reasons. One also cannot ignore the fact that having an average paying job in Poland will not let you live as comfortable as an average job in the UK will let you live - that's I guess the main obvious reason for emigration in general - everywhere. This causes the fact that there are significant amounts of emigrants in Poland from the Ukraine, Romania, Asian countries and recently a lot from poor African countries and India - and this contributes to xenophobia, Poland is unfortunately not used to diversity.

1

So, nothing to do with a political party and everything to do with relative poverty.

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EdEarl    653
44 minutes ago, Phi for All said:

Another trend has been for the corporate oligarchs to latch onto a populist movement, fund it and take over its message, then warp it to their own agenda, like the Kochs did with the Tea Party. The real winners here are the for-profit entertainment outlets people look to for factual information. Inflammatory events are not only driving wedges between formerly benign segments of our societies, they're driving views and clicks and ad dollars for corporations pretending to shed equal light on all stories.

Their bravado and desire to control is astounding. Recently, I called my congressman and both senators, and left a message about screwing up medicare, medicaid and taxes. A guy who I went to high school with in 1962-3 found me via facebook. He lived across the street from me, but we had not communicated in over 50 years. Turns out he was a Ranger in Vietnam, 3 tours, then trained as a helicopter pilot and returned to Vietnam for 2 tours, and retired from the Army.. Then, he joined the NTSB, and retired again. He said Sessions had asked him to be head of the NTSB, but he declined.

Anyway, he gave me a tip about a $25,000 grant and said, "Just say Corkey sent you.". I called the number he gave, and a woman answered, "Hello." I said, "Corkey said to call here." She said, "Oh yes, about the grant. I need some information." When she started asking about my financial history, I said I'd have to look it up, and get back. I didn't call again.

After calling my congressman and senators, pollsters started calling, and continued for more than a month. I had not been called by a pollster before. Corkey hasn't communicated again, either. I may be paranoid, but I think I was offered a $25,000 bribe; although, I cannot reconcile why they would think I am worth bribing.

During all this, I was approached by a hooker on social media, another event out of the blue. I've never paid a sex worker, so it is bizarre.

It could all be random events, but doesn't feel like it. It feels like money probing for weaknesses in people who might oppose the status quo.

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koti    140
22 minutes ago, dimreepr said:

So, nothing to do with a political party and everything to do with relative poverty.

The opposition which won a few years later implemented various internal legislation which was supposed to enable the Poles to return from the immigration in the UK.
There were multiple reasons for the Polish immigration to the UK directly related to "PiS" party in 2005/2006 - they raised taxes, they were destroying public healthcare, they were destrying public education, they started to implement a police state, they made it more difficult for micro business to thrive, etc. These were direct reasons why a lot of Poles emigrated to the UK in those years and these reasons were caused by the PiS party.

On a side note...are you going to state where this is going or are you just trying to entertain my inner-peace experience once again ?
Oh and don't worry dimreepr, there's very little chance I'll be emigrating to the UK (you have shitty faucets in the UK) so you can sleep calmly.

Edited by koti

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