Itoero

Mass in black holes (split from Mass)

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MigL    491

I'm gonna have to agree with Itoero on this one guys...

Mass/energy is information, as is charge and angular momentum.
This information is conserved by GR, because the theory treats these quantities classically.
and for this same reason Quantum Mechanical quantities/information are not conserved by a classical theory.

Quantum mechanical information is encoded in the wave function, and as such determines its state at any other time, which is at odds with multiple states being reduced to a single state by the BH.

Still waiting on a quantum theory of gravity to clarify things...

Presently AdS/CFT duality, Holographic Principle and String theory say that quantum information must be preserved along with the unitary time evolution of the wave function,and so, Hawking radiation and BH evaporation must be modified to preserve it.
But since the wave function as an encoding mechanism for all states is an ( Copenhagen ) interpretation, some people ( R Penrose to be exact ) have argued that it is not necessary to preserve quantum information as quantum information/measurements are already non-unitary ( see Conformal Cyclic Cosmology ) and may even have found evidence for this in data from WMAP.

Still waiting on Quantum Gravity...

Still waiting...

 

 

 

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Strange    2430
3 hours ago, MigL said:

Mass/energy is information, as is charge and angular momentum.
This information is conserved by GR, because the theory treats these quantities classically.

But the whole point is that Itoero claimed mass is not conserved "because it is information". Which is clearly wrong. 

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MigL    491

Oooops,  my bad.

I guess I got the wrong impression  from reading the posts at the bottom of page 2.
( again, what happened to post numbers ? )

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Itoero    44
On ‎17‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 9:47 PM, beecee said:

As I said.....

"GR also tells us that once the Schwarzchild radius is reached, further collapse is compulsory, so we can I believe logically assume that any BH is mostly just critically curved spacetime, with the mass (all the mass) at the core/singularity, in an unknown state. (which is at the quantum/Planck level". so we can I believe logically assume that any BH is mostly just critically curved spacetime, with the mass (all the mass) at the core/singularity, in an unknown state. (which is at the quantum/Planck level.

 

You can't use logic to define what's after an event horizon, especially not the black hole event horizon.

On ‎18‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 8:10 AM, Strange said:

But the whole point is that Itoero claimed mass is not conserved "because it is information". Which is clearly wrong. 

That's not what I said. A lot of things can be information: mass, energy, particles...(quantum states can also be information)it depends on the context they are in. And GR talks about the formation of black holes. There are many assumptions but there is zero evidence for what happens after the event horizon

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Itoero    44
On ‎17‎-‎9‎-‎2017 at 6:00 PM, Strange said:

For the same reason that everything falls towards the centre of the earth. 

This sums everything up. Do you people know and understand what an event horizon is?

I'm posting science, you people post misinterpretations based on science yet you seem to think I'm posting subjective beliefs  This discussion is not fair.

Edited by Itoero
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Strange    2430
55 minutes ago, Itoero said:

This sums everything up. Do you people know and understand what an event horizon is?

GR tells us that matter falls towards the centre of a black hole so I am not sure what your complaint is.

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beecee    77
4 hours ago, Itoero said:

You can't use logic to define what's after an event horizon, especially not the black hole event horizon.

GR tells us that when the Schwarzchild radius is reached, further collapse is compulsory. That means that essentially all a BH is and consists of is critically curved spacetime, with the singularity at the core. That's logic, and I believe you certainly can use it.

Quote

. And GR talks about the formation of black holes. There are many assumptions but there is zero evidence for what happens after the event horizon

Again as GR tells us that once the schwarzchild radius is reached further collapse is compulsory, how is that not evidence that essentially a BH is just critically curved spacetime with the mass/singularity at the core...GR is still a fairly robust theory the last time I looked, so I see no reason to doubt that compulsory further collapse.

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