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Timeline for when religion will be obsolete.


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#161 zapatos

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 04:16 PM

The Jesuits are taught the Pope speaks for God on earth and over rules the fictional Jesus and Moses or anything wrote about them in the bible.


No, they are not taught the Pope speaks for God on earth, nor that he over rules Jesus.
If you are going to criticize the religion, at least try to understand the basics, otherwise you'll simply be dismissed as a religious bigot.
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And the Lord spake, saying, "First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. -MP

"As a good christian, I'm always going to disagree with any proof you try to give me." -Peter BE cimp

#162 Prometheus

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Posted 18 June 2017 - 06:06 PM

Some of the above posts sadly demonstrate why religion will continue into the foreseeable. On this forum there are supposedly intelligent people who would demand scientific proof for everything, and then they believe in the omnipotent great god teapot flying around the sun and supposedly indoctrinate their children into the same belief system.

 

I don't think any theists have contributed to this thread, and i'm perhaps the only one who identifies as religious (Jedi, according to my answer to the last census). But whether one is religious or not doesn't matter, just the points made. Which of the arguments put forward here make you despair for humanity? Nobody had suggested religion will never be obsolete because God exists have they?


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The wild geese do not intend

To cast their reflection

The water has no mind

To retain their image.

 

www.senseaboutscience.org/

 


#163 Handy andy

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 03:15 PM

No, they are not taught the Pope speaks for God on earth, nor that he over rules Jesus.
If you are going to criticize the religion, at least try to understand the basics, otherwise you'll simply be dismissed as a religious bigot.

 

It seems I may have put my zapato in my mouth. Apologies for suspecting you support Jesuitism.

 

Ref the Jesuits: You don't have to dig deep to find all sorts of stories about their involvement in politics, and conspiracies whereby they have been expelled from countries worldwide.

 

I would therefore refute your idea that I am bigoted or intolerant of ideas differing from my own.

 

The conspiracy theories could all be hokum, but they do exist and are widely known about, I did not make them up.

 

https://www.worldslastchance.com/end-time-prophecy/10-facts-you-must-know-about-the-jesuits.html 

 

This is one of their oaths I cant lay my hands on the one I was referencing

http://www.reformati...esuit-oath.html


 

I don't think any theists have contributed to this thread, and i'm perhaps the only one who identifies as religious (Jedi, according to my answer to the last census). But whether one is religious or not doesn't matter, just the points made. Which of the arguments put forward here make you despair for humanity? Nobody had suggested religion will never be obsolete because God exists have they?

 

Whilst you claim a religious identity, you simply use some of the Buddhist ideas in your life. Many religious people who believe in gods and after lives would say that you are not religious because you do not believe in a god or afterlife. Jedi nights believe in the force, do you believe in the force also :-) Joking. I don't despair for humanity, the only thing I wrote that could give you that ideas is I used the word sadly, which is not despair. I am sad  that people think that religion that destroys peoples lives is not a bad thing to teach children. In Catholicism divorce isn't allowed, if a spouse is being mistreated by a partner is it not better to separate, what benefit can there be for children to see their mothers beaten up.  

 

Regarding despair, the world seems to becoming more polarized both politically and religiously, and I suspect it isn't going to turn out well. Mr Trumps latest exploit in Cuba is just an example. Not being an American he appears to be a nutter. 


Edited by Handy andy, 19 June 2017 - 03:21 PM.

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#164 Prometheus

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 05:57 PM

Whilst you claim a religious identity, you simply use some of the Buddhist ideas in your life....

 

 

What else do you think being Buddhist entails? 

 

It also makes my life a little easier. Few people i meet understand why a white male doesn't drink, and everyone thinks they will be the one to drag me off the wagon. Failure is met by questioning why.  Not enjoying it is apparently not an acceptable answer so i say i'm Buddhist, and apparently that explains it to their satisfaction.

 

But we need a thread on the definition of religion and what constitutes a religious person to explore further.

 

 

I am sad  that people think that religion that destroys peoples lives is not a bad thing to teach children. In Catholicism divorce isn't allowed, if a spouse is being mistreated by a partner is it not better to separate, what benefit can there be for children to see their mothers beaten up.  

 

Regarding despair, the world seems to becoming more polarized both politically and religiously, and I suspect it isn't going to turn out well. Mr Trumps latest exploit in Cuba is just an example. Not being an American he appears to be a nutter. 

 

It's the treatment of religion as one homogeneous entity that i'm arguing against. I fully acknowledge the ugly aspects of various religions. It's just some people do not acknowledge any positive aspects. I would say that such a treatment is actually exacerbating the polarisation you lament, not improving it. It's just an 'us vs them' mentality because, well, you know, religious people are so stoopid and atheists are just intellectually better.


Edited by Prometheus, 19 June 2017 - 06:03 PM.

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The wild geese do not intend

To cast their reflection

The water has no mind

To retain their image.

 

www.senseaboutscience.org/

 


#165 Handy andy

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 09:59 AM

 

 

What else do you think being Buddhist entails? 

 

It also makes my life a little easier. Few people i meet understand why a white male doesn't drink, and everyone thinks they will be the one to drag me off the wagon. Failure is met by questioning why.  Not enjoying it is apparently not an acceptable answer so i say i'm Buddhist, and apparently that explains it to their satisfaction.

 

But we need a thread on the definition of religion and what constitutes a religious person to explore further.

 

 

 

It's the treatment of religion as one homogeneous entity that i'm arguing against. I fully acknowledge the ugly aspects of various religions. It's just some people do not acknowledge any positive aspects. I would say that such a treatment is actually exacerbating the polarisation you lament, not improving it. It's just an 'us vs them' mentality because, well, you know, religious people are so stoopid and atheists are just intellectually better.

 

As a religious person who does not believe in god or an afterlife, what are you looking for.? Psychic abilities what?

 

Buddhism believes in an afterlife in the form of reincarnation until enlightenment. What is enlightenment for you?

 

You appear lost in the wilderness, and looking for a direction or meaning to life.

Direction is achieved by interest, opportunity, and motivation. You have an interest in Buddhism, how did you get interested in that?

 

Religious or Atheist, makes no difference to a persons intelligence, what makes you think that. Genetics, upbringing, social environment, and opportunity are major factors in people being allowed to advance amongst many others. Many religious people are atheists it seems.

 

I suspect0 Religious people take the line of least resistance and can be herded like sheep, whilst atheists are generally not easily led, and are anarchistic in there views, wolves in sheeps clothing :-)..

 

As for a meaning to life or some hierarchy in the animal kingdom, why does anyone need one. We were born we will die, just like everything else on the planet. In the middle you have a life to live, why not get on with it. As you indicated earlier what we do in life ripples through into the future. Mindfulness of your actions, and how you behave towards others, is normal human behaviour, religion is not required for this.

 

As for an afterlife, given a few millennia all your molecules will be recycled reborn ie they will re-enter the food chain, and work their way back through..

 

The thread was about when would belief in god become obsolete, Rather than highlighting all religion, should we narrow down to religious groups who believe in a god, or narrow it down even further to what definition of a god should become obsolete.

There are numerous options to choose from.

God as a person, Jesus, accepted by some Christian groups. rejected by Islam.

God of the old testament, comes down in flying saucer.

God in everything, or God Particle

Hinduism take your pick

 

Who is the wanker that keeps marking me down -1 .

 

I will please who ever it is and stop posting.


Edited by Handy andy, 20 June 2017 - 10:28 AM.

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#166 dimreepr

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 10:59 AM

 

As a religious person who does not believe in god or an afterlife, what are you looking for.? Psychic abilities what?

 

Why not peace and tranquility?

 

whilst atheists are generally not easily led, and are anarchistic in there views

 

 

Have propagandists have been wasting their time?


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Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill, as that he knows not it tolls for him; and perchance I may think myself so much better than I am.... -John Donne.

 

 

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#167 Prometheus

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 11:49 AM

As a religious person who does not believe in god or an afterlife, what are you looking for.? Psychic abilities what?

 

No, not psychic abilities. 

 

I think people here would agree that there is no permanent self, no soul, no ghost in the machine, but still experience life as though they are a homunculus sitting behind the eyes. It is one thing to have an intellectual understanding that this is an illusion, quite another to feel it. Buddhism provides a means to feel this.

 

 

Buddhism believes in an afterlife in the form of reincarnation until enlightenment. What is enlightenment for you?

 

Like i said before, Buddhism teaches rebirth not reincarnation.

 

Enlightenment, or Nirvana, is a state of mind.

 

 

Religious or Atheist, makes no difference to a persons intelligence, what makes you think that. Genetics, upbringing, social environment, and opportunity are major factors in people being allowed to advance amongst many others. Many religious people are atheists it seems.

 

I agree. It has been implied (perhaps on similar threads) that atheists are intellectually superior to religious people. Forgive me if i have falsely accused you of this.

 

 

I suspect0 Religious people take the line of least resistance and can be herded like sheep, whilst atheists are generally not easily led, and are anarchistic in there views, wolves in sheeps clothing :-)..

 

I agree: religious people are often so because of inertia, while atheists have usually had to rebel against a majority view. This will change as atheism spreads: people will not believe simply because of the influence of people around them. 

 

 

As for a meaning to life or some hierarchy in the animal kingdom, why does anyone need one. We were born we will die, just like everything else on the planet. In the middle you have a life to live, why not get on with it. As you indicated earlier what we do in life ripples through into the future. Mindfulness of your actions, and how you behave towards others, is normal human behaviour, religion is not required for this.

 

Humans seek meaning. We know the world through our brains which, amongst other things, is an organ of meaning. It is as natural for the brain to think as the heart to beat. 

 

 

 

I don't need to study past mathematics: i could just start from scratch and maybe i'll figure out Pythagoras's Theorem by the time i die. Or i could study known maths and perhaps contribute something new.

 

Similarly, i could seek meaning from scratch. Or i could take the various insights gleaned through the centuries, some of which are bound in religious narratives. Buddhism provides me with a nice framework from which to explore my existence: i could do without it, but since it's there and i've found it useful i may as well use it. 

 

 

 

The thread was about when would belief in god become obsolete, Rather than highlighting all religion, should we narrow down to religious groups who believe in a god, or narrow it down even further to what definition of a god should become obsolete.

 

We could do, i think it's only me arguing otherwise. See, religious people can rebel too.


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The wild geese do not intend

To cast their reflection

The water has no mind

To retain their image.

 

www.senseaboutscience.org/

 


#168 koti

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 12:06 PM

+1 Prometheus. It was a pleasure to read what you wrote.

I was about to write a sarcastic note that I'm worried about you being a non-drinker but I decided to let go as it might be taken the wrong way ;)
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#169 Handy andy

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Posted 20 June 2017 - 04:09 PM

That none drinking thing is a worry. :)

 

I guess if you choose not to piss your money up against a wall, it is bonus and maybe it is something with increasing taxation that every one will stop doing. Like smoking. What pleasure activity will the government tax next.   


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#170 Handy andy

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Posted Yesterday, 09:23 AM

 

 

 

No, not psychic abilities. 

 

I think people here would agree that there is no permanent self, no soul, no ghost in the machine, but still experience life as though they are a homunculus sitting behind the eyes. It is one thing to have an intellectual understanding that this is an illusion, quite another to feel it. Buddhism provides a means to feel this.

 

 

 

Like i said before, Buddhism teaches rebirth not reincarnation.

 

Enlightenment, or Nirvana, is a state of mind.

 

 

 

I agree. It has been implied (perhaps on similar threads) that atheists are intellectually superior to religious people. Forgive me if i have falsely accused you of this.

 

 

 

I agree: religious people are often so because of inertia, while atheists have usually had to rebel against a majority view. This will change as atheism spreads: people will not believe simply because of the influence of people around them. 

 

 

 

Humans seek meaning. We know the world through our brains which, amongst other things, is an organ of meaning. It is as natural for the brain to think as the heart to beat. 

 

 

 

I don't need to study past mathematics: i could just start from scratch and maybe i'll figure out Pythagoras's Theorem by the time i die. Or i could study known maths and perhaps contribute something new.

 

Similarly, i could seek meaning from scratch. Or i could take the various insights gleaned through the centuries, some of which are bound in religious narratives. Buddhism provides me with a nice framework from which to explore my existence: i could do without it, but since it's there and i've found it useful i may as well use it. 

 

 

 

 

We could do, i think it's only me arguing otherwise. See, religious people can rebel too.

 

I rarely trust someone who doesn't drink :) without checking out what they say. 

 

 

 

Buddhism in its original form was not a religion, however different forms of Buddhism have evolved.

Are Bodhisattvas not a Buddhist belief in reincarnation.? " In Buddhism, one karmic choice results in rebirth after rebirth and presents a special case in the study of reincarnation. A bodhisattva is an enlightened being who takes a vow to delay existence in Nirvana until all beings are enlightened. This is the highest expression of Buddhist compassion and an exception to the general process of death and rebirth. The great Tibetan tulkus are bodhisattvas, reincarnate lamas who return to continue teaching others the Buddhist truths. Guan Yin is a revered bodhisattva in many Buddhist cultures, worshiped as the goddess of compassion. Buddhists who are still working toward enlightenment may take bodhisattva vows to ensure that once they reach a permanent state of bliss, they don't remain there but are reborn endlessly to help everyone become a buddha, or realized being."   Is following a contradiction to the above? " Buddhists do not believe there is a "thing," self or personality who goes through life, death and rebirth into another body. Buddhist reincarnation can be understood as consciousness, the creative principle, manifesting endlessly in new forms. A life is considered to be like a wave in the ocean. It appears to have form and then it is gone, vanished back into the sea. Meanwhile, the vast ocean exists, containing all waves, all water, with new waves continually arising and subsiding. 

"

 

The above paragraph describes karma, action and effect, good or bad actions ripple through time like waves, like you mentioned previously.

To me this sounds like the quantum world.

 

The following implies that Buddhism has a belief in something after death even if it is not a unique self. I understand this to mean a oneness with the universe, or what was you carries on rippling into the future.

 

"

Consciousness is energy, and all energy is one connected field, like drops of water in the ocean.

 

Nirvana is simply the state of consciousness in which attachment and craving have been released and the bliss of perfect freedom is experienced.

 

A blameless life earns rebirth into a more highly-evolved consciousness, a step closer to Nirvana or enlightenment.

"

 

What do you understand Nervana to be under Buddhism?

 

Sorry about the font changes something went wrong with the cut and paste, which came from this link http://peopleof.oure...ation-5574.html if any one is interested.

 

 

Which form of Buddhism do you follow Theravada, Mahatayama Tibetan Zen etc or do you like many people have your own ideas.


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#171 Prometheus

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Posted Today, 11:32 AM

Buddhism in its original form was not a religion, however different forms of Buddhism have evolved.

 

Depends how we define religion, particularly whether theism is integral to it.

 

 

To me this sounds like the quantum world.

 

It's just an analogy, don't stretch it too far or you'll end up as confused as Deepak Chopra.

 

 

The following implies that Buddhism has a belief in something after death even if it is not a unique self. I understand this to mean a oneness with the universe, or what was you carries on rippling into the future.

 

 

Let's say that life, and even consciousness, is simply some pattern arising from a particular configuration of matter. Death then would be the cessation of such a pattern. But the patterns don't exist in isolation, they arose from preceding conditions, they dance with other patterns never remaining exactly the same from one moment to the next. And even after a pattern has gone it's echoes linger. 

 

It is most common in Buddhism to interpret these echoes as ones karma which goes on to form a new consciousness. I don't understand this particular teaching, it's almost as is Buddhism teaches the illusory nature of an absolute self in life, but the primacy of self in death. To my mind, the ripples i have caused may go on to form a conscious pattern in the future, but that pattern is not me.

 

 

What do you understand Nervana to be under Buddhism?

 

The second quote sums it quite well for me. I'd just say that bliss isn't some rapturous ecstasy, it's more ordinary. After enlightenment, the laundry.

 

 

 

Which form of Buddhism do you follow Theravada, Mahatayama Tibetan Zen etc or do you like many people have your own ideas.

 

 

Zen. They have the most comfortable meditation cushions. I'd go to a Thai Forest temple of there were one close to me.


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The wild geese do not intend

To cast their reflection

The water has no mind

To retain their image.

 

www.senseaboutscience.org/

 


#172 Handy andy

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Posted Today, 12:25 PM

I do not think it would be overwhelmingly hard to take a few Buddhist teachings align them with scientific theories such as the various quantum theories, modern social practices and thinking techniques and you would have a new age (way of life) based on what is known or understood to be true today. Add a bit of paranormal to keep the peasants happen and you have a religion.

 

I saw 100's of temples in Asia and I never saw anything like a comfortable place to rest, for anything like a long period of time.

 

If anyone wants to go to Thailand get on an aeroplane, maybe pay for a first night in a hotel, then wing it with the locals, using hostels motorcycles and buses, you can get around for virtually nothing, it is an excellent country to tour, and culturally very interesting.

Khampeng phet amongst others is interesting old temple to look at.

 

If you get lost in Thailand the sign posts are no use they are written in pictures Thai text. Plenty folk speak English till you learn a bit of Thai.


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