Relativity Question - Split from Massless Particle

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

Relativity question:

 

When you make rope waves, the rope doesn't go much of anywhere but the waves do.

 

When you make sound waves, the particles of air don't go much of anywhere, but the waves do.

 

Is it possible that even tho light "waves" move right along at c, the photons are not going much of anywhere,

or are maybe even [ G A S P ! ] vibrating in place?

 

(Blasphemy! Heresy! I didn't say that.)

 

Worse! Would that make the array of photons in space be [ S H U D D E R ! ] the Aether?!

 

(I didn't say that, either. Um, the devil made me say it.)

 

Tie me up, men! I can feel another fit coming on.

 

Give me a minute and maybe I can work Phlogistine into this . . .

Edited May 14, 2017 by frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

GLENN: Oh, how lonesome I feel, with nobody answering my speculation!

 

FRED: I'll answer you, but you won't like my answer.

 

MARY: Just to be playing along with you, how were you planning to work Phlogistine into this Thread?

 

GLENN: I was lying about that.

 

MARY: Joking?

 

GLENN: Yeah.

 

FRED: All the possible variations of the Aether speculation have been answered, put down, contradicted and falsified.

 

GLENN: All the variations on Photons have assumed that the cars stand still and the utility poles whizz by.

 

FRED: You're crazy.

 

GLENN: No doubt. However . . .

 

FRED: "However. . . " nothing. You are not only wrong but you are incapable of understanding real physics.

 

GLENN: I never said I could. I asked a simple question. Then the roof blew off.

 

MARY: He already said he was joking.

 

GLENN: . . . about Phlogistine. But I was serious when I asked if the electromagnetic waves moved AMONG the photons, which didn't move much at all. Like other kinds of waves.

 

MARY: Then you ARE crazy.

 

GLENN: I already told you that.

 

FRED: We have whole books of mathematics about the movements of the electromagnetic spectrum. You can't possibly begin to understand what you're into. You can't just say "rope-waves" and contradict all that advanced experimental study and math.

 

GLENN: I didn't. I just asked a civil question.

 

MARY: And we just gave you a civil answer.

Edited May 16, 2017 by frankglennjacobs@gmail.com

[Strange]

Is it possible that even tho light "waves" move right along at c, the photons are not going much of anywhere,

or are maybe even vibrating in place?

 

 

well, we know a single photon can be released from pint A and detected at point B. So "vibrating in place" doesn't seem a very sound idea.

 

On the other hand, we can't say anything about where the photon is between A and B. To calculate what happens, you actually have to calculate every possible path the photon could take (out to the black hole at the centre of the galaxy, doing a couple of orbits and then back again). so it seems like they are genuinely non-local until they interact with something.

 

 

 

Worse! Would that make the array of photons in space be the Aether?!

 

If you want to call anything the aether, then it should be the electromagnetic field. It is everywhere, and it is "the thing that waves" (crudely). Photons are just (quantised) disturbances in that field.

[swansont]

 

Is it possible that even tho light "waves" move right along at c, the photons are not going much of anywhere,

or are maybe even [ G A S P ! ] vibrating in place?

 

 

Because the photon is, by our definitions in physics, the phenomenon that moves at c.

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

Thank you. Thank you for your straight answers. I really do appreciate that kindness.

 

PLAN A: A light generates a photon (do they DO that?) and it goes at c until it hits the photographic gelatin that absorbs and extinguishes it.

 

PLAN B: A light jiggles a photon, which jiggles the next one in a straight line, which jiggles the next one in a straight line --- until one of the photons smacks into photographic gelatin and is absorbed.

 

Na-a-a-a-a-a-h! It is PLAN A. These little BBs do not exist until they are energized by electromagnetic energy. Then they go at 186,000 miles a second until they splat against the photographic paper and are extinguished.

 

That brings back the old question from the previous century of whether the Photons are waves or particles, or, somehow, both.

 

Swansont gives a wise answer: We have defined the Photon as the entity that goes at c. That is, WHATEVER is going that fast is what we call the Photon. Now, the Wave is either the waving of something, or the waving of nothing, or it is something else or there are no waves at all.

 

HOWEVER, a single photon hits a rock wall down in the depths of Carlsbad Caverns and is reflected in infinite directions.

The photon did not break up. It seems to have transferred a pro-rata portion of its energy to each of any number of photons, which transferred the energy to other photons. Or did it bounce? Or did it transfer all of its energy to just ONE other photon?

[Strange]

HOWEVER, a single photon hits a rock wall down in the depths of Carlsbad Caverns and is reflected in infinite directions.

The photon did not break up. It seems to have transferred a pro-rata portion of its energy to each of any number of photons, which transferred the energy to other photons. Or did it bounce? Or did it transfer all of its energy to just ONE other photon?

 

 

A photon cannot be split up. That is where the "particle" nature comes in.

 

The entire photon can be absorbed or the entire photon can be reflected.

[swansont]

 

HOWEVER, a single photon hits a rock wall down in the depths of Carlsbad Caverns and is reflected in infinite directions.

The photon did not break up. It seems to have transferred a pro-rata portion of its energy to each of any number of photons, which transferred the energy to other photons. Or did it bounce? Or did it transfer all of its energy to just ONE other photon?

 

 

The photon would be absorbed, and then multiple photons can be re-emitted.

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

Is each Photon of the same strength?

[swansont]

Is each Photon of the same strength?

 

 

Energy is conserved.

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

Strange,

 

Please tell me (in words of one syllable) about the experiment involving releasing and detecting a single Photon.

 

Thank you.

[Sensei]

Please tell me (in words of one syllable) about the experiment involving releasing and detecting a single Photon.

 

f.e.

In photoelectric effect, single photon is absorbed, and single electron, called photoelectron, is ejected from metal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photoelectric_effect

Kinetic energy of photoelectron corresponds to photon energy minus energy required to eject electron.

[math]\frac{1}{2} m_e v^2 = h f - W[/math]

 

When electron and positron annihilates together, there are created typically two photons, going in opposite directions in CoM FoR of matter-antimatter prior annihilation.

[math]e^- + e^+ \rightarrow \gamma + \gamma + 1.022 MeV[/math]

Edited May 17, 2017 by Sensei

[frankglennjacobs@gmail.com]

Is this photoelectric effect what makes the famous solar panels make electricity?

 

Is this read "Electron plus Positron yield Photon plus Photon plus 1.022 Million Electron Volts""

 

I do not at all understand the other equation. I take it is about the momentum of a Photon powering an electron.

[Sensei]

Is this photoelectric effect what makes the famous solar panels make electricity?

It could be used.

 

Is this read "Electron plus Positron yield Photon plus Photon plus 1.022 Million Electron Volts""

Electron and positron (antimatter antiparticle of electron), have the same rest-mass ~ 0.511 MeV/c^2

So, once they annihilate together, they release two photons with energy ~ 0.511 MeV each usually.

Energy prior annihilation is equal to energy post annihilation.

Charge prior annihilation (-1e + 1e) is equal to charge post annihilation (0e).

 

I do not at all understand the other equation. I take it is about the momentum of a Photon powering an electron.

Photon energy and momentum is transferred to metal (W), and electron (K.E. of photoelectron). Photon disappears.

 

If hf<W nothing happens. No photoelectric effect. No photoelectrons ejected from metal.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Sensei

[swansont]

It could be used.

 

 

But generally it isn't. Solar cells don't rely on ionization. Photons promote an electron into the conduction band of the semiconductor (similar to atomic excitation), which takes less energy.