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Precognition and Eternalism


Salubrius

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MANY EARTHQUAKES HAPPENED WITHOUT MY DREAMING OF THEM. So what?

 

 

Strange, each time I had a precognitive dream about an earthquake, the dream was so real that I announced it the same day to someone. Then, the following day, the event occurred.

I never had dreams like that where I announced anything to anybody, and I was wrong----- involving earthquakes that did not occur the following day.

And what about the nuke plant leak? That is very detailed--- I was with a group of people touring the plant and a leak occurred. That happened the next day. At the closest plant to where I was, 40 miles or so away. Would that be just coincidence?

Edited by Dave Moore
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I don't understand the term, "supernatural". To me, it's all the same thing. I think, DrP, that you might need to consider that what is considered woo-woo is possibly very well understood by some people.

I told you or somebody that I always mentioned predictive dreams to other people before the event.

I even woke up my wife to tell her I'd just had an extraordinary dream, like it was real--- the day before the Algiers quake. I described to her in detail the people running, the ground shaking, the scene of the city of Algiers (at least a middle-eastern city). Thousands died. 30.000 homes destroyed. Worst in history. Around 1980. Look it up. No, I don't have that dream every night. About the worst earthquake in Algiers in history. And yes, it could have been Cairo for all I knew, but really!

I already said that I never predicted earthquakes that didn't happen. Only ones that did, and only three times. Always the day before, so I don't know what you mean when you say I hear the news and viola! I was right! No, I repeat, I always tell someone before the next day begins, before the earthquake even happens.

I otherwise can't recall any earthquake dreams.

Next you'll say, well maybe I dream of nuclear power plants leaking radiation every night and then after it happens, I am jogged to remember the dream. No, I remembered the nuke dfream upon waking and only later heard it on the news, and it happened after I remembered it, not before.

There's just no way around it. One can have predictive dreams. Why can't that be possible? And insofar as supernatural goes, you said that, not me. I don't separate real from supernatural. I know they are all a part of one big reality. I know why those dreams occur too, but I am not pushing that agenda here right now.

Suffice to say, I will explain it to anyone with ears but since few can even imagine the ramifications of determinism, I never get very far in the explaining.

Strange, you are not making sense! Read what you just wrote!


What occurs with otherwise perfectly intelligent people upon being confronted with something that they can't explain but believe they can is called cognitive dissonance. And Strange, you are proving that to be true.

When your mind is split, and yours is, the intellect is also somewhat split. It's weird but it happens all the time.

It's not stubbornness, nor is it even intended. It's just that we humans have an awfully hard time remembering that we once knew certain things about reality, before we even had words to describe what we knew. Some people can get back to that way of knowin, but very few. So I understand. It gives me patience. I certainly don't blame you for not understanding.

In fact, something tells me you read ny stuff because something in you knows something but you can't pull it up.

Edited by Dave Moore
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You were scheduled for as trip to the nuke plant right? .. So it is not unusual to have a dream about it the night before. If you are dreaming about a nuke plant (brought on by the fact that you have a visit planned the next day) it is not then unreasonable to assume your brain creates a drama about a leak. The fact then that there was a leak is really uncanny..... but not impossible. It happens all the time.

 

Then... we have to actually believe you. You have bent the truth before on here - we've know you for just over a week or so and have already seen you bend the truth several times, so why should we believe you now?

 

There are several possible explanations for your earthquake dreams... some more likely explanations than others. You seem bent on believing it is precognition.... most probably it isn't.


........ .. . ...

 

Then there is the matter of memory... I have 2 stories from when I was a kid. One about a knife, the other about an air gun and a bird. I share these stories sometimes and have done several times with my father. These days, although I don't see him that much, HE is the one who know tells these 2 stories as if they were his own. His memory (OR MY memory) has changed events to make the experience his own. He know tells people the story of the knife and that of the gun and bird as if it happened to him as a child..... even though it was me. I haven't really challenged him about it - he doesn't take criticism or correction too well and I can't be bothered to go through it all.... some of his other claims have changed too in recent years. I ask him about something he said years back and he doesn't even remember it or it he argues something completely different.

Edited by DrP
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Then there is the matter of memory... I have 2 stories from when I was a kid. One about a knife, the other about an air gun and a bird. I share these stories sometimes and have done several times with my father. These days, although I don't see him that much, HE is the one who know tells these 2 stories as if they were his own. His memory (OR MY memory) has changed events to make the experience his own. He know tells people the story of the knife and that of the gun and bird as if it happened to him as a child..... even though it was me. I haven't really challenged him about it - he doesn't take criticism or correction too well and I can't be bothered to go through it all.... some of his other claims have changed too in recent years. I ask him about something he said years back and he doesn't even remember it or it he argues something completely different.

 

 

This is very common. Many of the things we think we remember as children are things we have been told about as others. Memory is very unreliable and malleable (for example, the experiments where people are "given" memories of meeting Bugs Bunny at Disneyworld, which is obviously impossible.)

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Out of interest Dave Moore - which nuclear plant was it and when was this leak? I bet that was a bit of a drama being evacuated from the nuclear plant. Did they screen you for radiation? It must have been in the papers too.... "School trip to nuclear plant cancelled due to reactor breach!".... unless they covered it up of course.

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Maine Yankee power plant, probably about '94-'.95.

No. I never went on a tour there. You are the one who is misremembering, not me. You aren't reading and comprehending what I wrote, but you accuse me of lying?

It's like I say,"I saw an eagle". You say, "when did you see the dog?--- because you've lied before!"

Come now, DrP, if you won't read or can't remember what I've wrote, do you really feel justified in calling me a liar? Go back and read and see who should not be calling anyone a liar.

 

Again, for those who can't remember what is written on this thread:

I had a dream. In the dream, I was with a group of people visiting a nuclear power plant. an alarm went off and it was announced that there had been a leak of radiation. I had a sinking feeling that I had been dosed.

Dream ends.

I woke up. Later that day, maybe in the afternoon, I heard on the radio that that day, a group of high school students had been touring the Maine Yankee power plant in Wiscasset, Maine. During their tour, a leak had occurred and they were safely evacuated.

Highlighted for easy reference later when you again accuse me of lying. From now on, I will highlight important posts so people with memory problems can avoid embarrassing themselves. And if you must insist that I'm lying, use the quote feature to prove it.


Yes, Strange, case in point. Some people think they've read something and feel so confident in their false memory that they even accuse people of lying.

Of course, YOU knew what I said. And since you did, what is your take on that dream?

 

 

P.s.--- The court case where the students sued the power plant over the leak was US district court, district of Maine, Civil # 95-159-P-C

Story in the Portland press herald, and other papers. Probably '94.


What bothers me, and should bother others who accuse, is that the accusers are so lazy that they don't even bother to read what I've said, or who are so mentally deficient that they can't remember what they have read. I see this again and again, and of course it's provable that it has happened. From now on, I will not give the time of day to people who think they can just willy-nilly and sloppily make accusatory and degrading comments based on nothing but mistakes they have made.

It's one thing to make mistakes about what someone has said. To call a person a liar over it is an insult and it deserves an apology.

Edited by Dave Moore
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DrP, I mentioned the dream first time in comment #11. Again in comment #23

 

I'm sorry, but anyone can see that I never said what you say I did. That makes you wrong, and publicly so.

And thank you for taking the initiative and leaving. That you can't apologize is well understood.

You have embarrassed yourself and I am sorry it had to happen. I would much rather have had an engaging conversation about the topic, where you don't finally run out of arguments and simply cry, "Liar!"

The way a person should argue a point is to respond to a claim and dismember it using reason. Not, "because people are full of crap, etc..

 

That is a chicken manure way of arguing a point. You feel very comfortable in your loose and flawed way of arguing because you feel that most people, perhaps Strange, agree with you. Again, that is bull. You can't argue because you can't imagine changing your mind.

I need a worthy opponent. You are not it.

Edited by Dave Moore
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1 - I don't think I directly said you were a liar, I think I said you bent the truth in that other thread about placebos, which is a little different. I'm not sure if you did it intentionally either.

 

2 -I also over reacted a little in that other thread when we were talking about Randi. Maybe a little embarrasment was felt, but not for the reasons you stated.

 

3 - This topic does interest me because of some of the experiences I've had and beliefs I once held. I don't claim to be a brilliant debater - we have written a lot and maybe I have over looked something. There are so many points to discuss it might be best to stick to one at a time, or maybe not at all. Regarding the dream - it IS pretty amazing when stuff like that happens.... I know..... but that's just it, stuff like that happens.

 

4 - I am able to change my mind on things.. I wrote this a while back. http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/92254-a-statement-of-faith/?hl=%2Bstatement+%2Bfaith

 

Peace out.

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DrP, You have my deepest respect. It is rare to find a person who can center like that. Very rare.

I'll read your writings.

 

Peace to you.


I just returned from Sam's Club. a woman hawking samples in the back offered me a food thing and I accepted, and we talked. She was German, I speak some, lived there as a kid.

When I asked how she was, she said, not so good. She had just fled from her church. Evangelical.

She said there were grey rats (not bats, she said) flying around her home. Other things too. I forget exactly, but they came at night. She had also found herself floating in the air outside. Sounded scary. The old church was after her. They appeared at her door every week.

She liked her new church. Nice people. Not so Satanic.

I said she was right to leave that church. I didn't disbelieve her. This was a very honest looking woman who was obviously getting over a very traumatic situation.

I asked her, very perplexed, why she was telling me this. Obviously she would be fired on the spot if I had reported her and someone grilled her.

She said, "I knew by your face you would understand. I could see it in your eyes." Other people wouldn't understand."

Nice woman. I liked her immensely. I left her feeling like a million bucks. It is a good thing to be properly read.

Edited by Dave Moore
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DrP, Strange,

 

I Neither of you are reading what I wrote.

EVERY time I had an earthquake dream, I made sure to announce that dream and EACH time, the earthquake occurred the next day.

No remembering only the dreams that came true. No false alarms.

This is nothing like meeting someone in a foreign city. I don't think that is very significant. I've had hundreds like that.

And yes, DrP, I do know why coincidences occur,. Most appear to be statistically possible. But mine? I was reading a book about coincidences and as I read, "Lincoln's birthday", I heard EXACTLY in cadence and timing with my mental reading of the same words, "Lincoln's birthday". As if my mind was speaking from the radio. I literally jumped!

What was cool was how my hearing 'Lincoln is terminated' inside my head (schizophrenic style), that was a mystery to me why the word 'terminator' was used. But the following morning, I found out. EXACTLY as I was viewing the arrowheads that were labelled, 'Terminator', I heard the salesman across the store say "this is the gun Schwarzenegger used in the movie, 'Terminator'.

I'm awake enough to know that I'm not selectively cherry picking these things. I hear things on the radio all the time. I'm thinking about a subject, and I hear the same subject on the radio.

Just recently I hooked back up with a friend I hadn't seen in 37 years. Between calling him the first time and his calling me back, I watched a movie that featured a robin's egg blue 1970 Volvo 240 sedan. It was identical to my friend's car that he drove back in '78 when I last knew him. Yes, I could have been missing seeing that car all along. I might have seen it many times over the years and thought nothing of it. I'm only mentioning it here because it falls short of my own litmus test for being statistically significant.

The precognitive dream about being with a group in a nuke plant and having the alarm go off is fairly detailed.

The following day, the EXACT same thing actually happened, and in the plant that was xclosest to me, the Maine Yankee plant in Wiscasset, Maine. The story may still be available. I felt, before hearing the news, that I had had a very frightening and real dream.

I think there's a place for doubting claims of coincidences and then there's grasping for straws. To say my experiences are easily discounted as normal is certainly grasping for straws.

If your claimed precognition was really that accurate, that perfect, it's a shame you didn't contact the Randi Foundation and take them up on their $1 Million reward! You'd be rich now.

Edited by Velocity_Boy
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Don't you have anything constructive to say? What do you think about precognition? If you don't have any interest in this subject, what on Earth are you doing here?

If you think I'm lying, then what use is it to say anything.

Does anyone have anything intelligent to say about precognition?

Edited by Dave Moore
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He made a perfectly valid point. You could claim millions if you can prove precognition (Randi isn't the only one). Given how people like money, the fact that nobody claimed the rewards is a pretty good argument against precognition.

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Most likely it was a coincidence in the opinion of most here I would think. It could have been premonition, but seeing as this has never happened before outside of statistical expectancy, then I would expect it was an amazing coincidence. It does happen. It HAS to happen from time to time other wise it would not be statistical.

 

A possible explanation would be that you have dreamt about it several times without remembering... but on that day you remembered it because of the real life event. It's just pareidolia imo. As I shared before - it has happened to me several times too.

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As with all claims of telepathy and other extraordinary mental abilities, since there is no experimental evidence that humans can have such powers, I have to fall back on the evolution argument. If precognition were real, it would be such a heavy advantage that it would be selected for and strengthened with each generation. We don't see anything like that in reality, so it's not happening. Pretty simple.

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Maine Yankee power plant, probably about '94-'.95.

No. I never went on a tour there. You are the one who is misremembering, not me. You aren't reading and comprehending what I wrote, but you accuse me of lying?

It's like I say,"I saw an eagle". You say, "when did you see the dog?--- because you've lied before!"

Come now, DrP, if you won't read or can't remember what I've wrote, do you really feel justified in calling me a liar? Go back and read and see who should not be calling anyone a liar.

 

Again, for those who can't remember what is written on this thread:

I had a dream. In the dream, I was with a group of people visiting a nuclear power plant. an alarm went off and it was announced that there had been a leak of radiation. I had a sinking feeling that I had been dosed.

Dream ends.

I woke up. Later that day, maybe in the afternoon, I heard on the radio that that day, a group of high school students had been touring the Maine Yankee power plant in Wiscasset, Maine. During their tour, a leak had occurred and they were safely evacuated.

Highlighted for easy reference later when you again accuse me of lying. From now on, I will highlight important posts so people with memory problems can avoid embarrassing themselves. And if you must insist that I'm lying, use the quote feature to prove it.

Yes, Strange, case in point. Some people think they've read something and feel so confident in their false memory that they even accuse people of lying.

Of course, YOU knew what I said. And since you did, what is your take on that dream?

 

 

P.s.--- The court case where the students sued the power plant over the leak was US district court, district of Maine, Civil # 95-159-P-C

Story in the Portland press herald, and other papers. Probably '94.

What bothers me, and should bother others who accuse, is that the accusers are so lazy that they don't even bother to read what I've said, or who are so mentally deficient that they can't remember what they have read. I see this again and again, and of course it's provable that it has happened. From now on, I will not give the time of day to people who think they can just willy-nilly and sloppily make accusatory and degrading comments based on nothing but mistakes they have made.

It's one thing to make mistakes about what someone has said. To call a person a liar over it is an insult and it deserves an apology.

 

For some 40 years or so, I've studied dreams and the dreaming brain as part of my interest in understanding the nature of mind and consciousness. It's exceedingly difficult, from my experience, to prove precognition in dreams beyond mere coincidence even when dream content precisely depicted some transpiring event. As I see it, the problem with claims of precognitive dreams is that those who experience them lack sufficient understanding of dreams and objectivity in interpreting their relevance. For example, given the number of nuclear power plants around the world, there was likely a high statistical probably that your nuclear plant dream might coincide with some imminent power plant incident elsewhere. That doesn't make your experience precognitive, just coincidental. Although many of us may not understand or accept, dreams occur for specific reasons applicable to the mind of the dreamer and events directly related to the dreamer's life. Primarily, dream content is a synthesis of thoughts uppermost in the mind of a dreamer amid the arousal caused by our brain's metabolic needs during sleep. Our brain consumes about 20% of our body's energy uptake, which occurs even in sleep. Our brain activity increases to wakeful levels during sleep because of its energy needs and it's that wakefulness that precipitates dreaming. Therefore, dreams are more descriptive or interpretive of thoughts rather than deeds or physical/material experience. As interpretations of thought, dream content likely describes something other than it's faux physical/material depictions. It's more likely that your nuclear power plant dream conveyed or interpreted thoughts related to events directly affecting your life rather than it being a precognitive experience of events elsewhere and unrelated to your life.

 

As with all claims of telepathy and other extraordinary mental abilities, since there is no experimental evidence that humans can have such powers, I have to fall back on the evolution argument. If precognition were real, it would be such a heavy advantage that it would be selected for and strengthened with each generation. We don't see anything like that in reality, so it's not happening. Pretty simple.

 

I agree, no solid evidence in empirical science has proven precognition; however, I can't say that I agree with your evolution argument. The survival of our species has and continues to be dependent on our preparedness for future events. Albeit based on observations and experience, our mental ability to predict future needs and forecast future events (e.g., weather forecasting) is indeed evidence that evolution has been selecting for such a leap in our perceptual assessments. Essentially, precognition is merely the bastard child of forecasting--such as the weather--that has yet to credibly mature.

Edited by DrmDoc
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As I have said already, the nuke plant was the one closest to me in the world. Only about one and a half hours away. I was with a group touring the facilities. an alarm sounded, and we were told we had to evacuate.

I've had other precognitive dreams, about earthquakes, but one in particular stood out.

That dream was when I was in Stockholm around 1980.

I dreamed I was running, panicked, with a lot of other people through the streets of what appeared to be z Muslim city.

The ground was shaking. tt was (very) bright daylight.

The dream was unusually intense. I woke up, still feeling the panic. I had never done this before, and haven't since, but I actually woke my wife to tell her about my amazingly real dream.

The following day, about 1;00 in the afternoon, the largest earthquake in Algerian history destroyed something like 20,000 homes and killed a lot of people.

 

I understand how many dreams would not rise to the level of being considered scientifically fitting the description of being truly anomalous. I also know I can't prove I'm not lying. It's almost, if not completely impossible, to prove a dream was precognitive because one would have to record the information in advance of the event to the satisfaction of a researcher, meaning a completely unnatural and mentally oppressive environment within which to dream. But these two examples are among the best you will find despite their lacking absolute proof.

It is the net impact of many claims over thousands of years that might steer one into spending a good portion of their lives studying the phenomenon. I am sure you must be somewhat aware of this if you have studied the topic?

I can explain why we can dream of future events, and also why they are so hard to prove, but no one here has the patience to listen, I have found, time and time again.

Edited by Dave Moore
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As I have said already, the nuke plant was the one closest to me in the world. Only about one and a half hours away. I was with a group touring the facilities. an alarm sounded, and we were told we had to evacuate.

I've had other precognitive dreams, about earthquakes, but on in particular stood out.

That dream was when I was in Stockholm around 1980.

I dreamed I was running, panicked, with a lot of other people through the streets of what appeared to be z Muslim city.

The ground was shaking. tt was bright daylight.

The dream was unusually intense. I woke up, still feeling the panic. I had never done this before, and haven't since, but I actually woke my wife to tell her about my amazingly real dream.

The following day, about 1;00 in the afternoon, the largest earthquake in Algerian history destroyed something like 20,000 homes and killed a lot of people.

 

I understand how many dreams would not rise to the level of being considered scientifically fitting the description of being truly anomalous. I also know I can't prove I'm not lying. It's almost, if not completely impossible, to prove a dream was precognitive because one would have to record the information to the satisfaction of a researcher, meaning a completely unnatural and mentally oppressive environment within which to dream. But these two examples are among the best you will find short of their lacking absolute proof.

It is the net impact of many claims over thousands of years that might steer one into spending a good portion of their lives studying the phenomenon. I am sure you must be somewhat aware of this if you have studied the topic?

 

While living that close to a nuclear power plant, it's likely that you've had several power plant related dreams that didn't result in an actual event, which would be more convincingly coincidental evidence. Such dreams can occur as an expression of your fears while living so close but not be precognitive. Also, there were probably several other earthquakes happening that day that didn't receive as much attention. If so, what connected that one specific location to your dream and not to any other that might have occurred? As I understand, there's a earthquake happening in the world somewhere almost everyday that receive little to no attention. The point I'm trying to convey is that your initial effort in assessing your dreams should involve ruling-out the probability of coincidence rather than an immediate precognitive pronouncement. Be skeptical and try to associate your dream experience to thoughts you may have had prior to that dream. When you do, you'll find that the content of your dreams most likely reflect the ongoing thoughts and concerns that disturb your sleep rather than some future event.

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Going back to Phi for All's comment----I agree no proof exists, except anecdotal. It's like pain. Does pain exist? I doubt it. Prove to me it does!

I have experienced both pain and precognitive dreams. I have heard of experiments that found statistical proof that telepathy does exist, and one would have to call their tests faulty in each case to say there's no such thing.

I have heard that a drawing chosen to send from one lead-lined boioth to another often was "picked up" by the receiver in ADVANCE of the sender even seeing it.

I am not making these claims, but I certainly wonder if researchers who went to the trouble of building those booths were so stupid that they didn't use accurate clocks, or ensure other protocols.

It is a shame that when a critic says they see no proof of such things, they really mean they are discounting the evidence offered by GUESSING the researchers were using pseudo-science or worse, when there isn't any proof of that happening.

And cherry-picking some obscure experiments that were faulty is no proof that all of them were.

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I have a friend who is constantly claiming to have predicted things. He sends me texts all week claiming this or that will happen then later follows up with boast that he told so, "I called it". Typically he lines up on both sides of an issue saying something will happen but then pointing out why it might not. He also refuses to be specific. He claims things will happen be if you ask when specific he refuses to answer. I even give him windows like one week, one month, one year and he just tells me to wait and see. As the person receiving his prediction I have yet to see one thing he has gotten right. He has himself convinced however and gets offended when I point out that he actually predicted nothing. By saying something will happen but probably won't happen and then refusing to provided a timeframe he is positions to take credit for whatever happens. Sadly he is convinced. It doesn't seem aware of the self deception.

 

Similarly we wife employees the popular self deception that she knew the right answer to a question once she hears it. Upon hearing the right answer to any question she gets wrong my wife say "that is what I was going to say". She does this so often I no longer will provide her answers to questions she asks me after only one guess. I always make her exhaust her guesses before answering a question.

 

If I am asked to pick a number between 1-10 every number between 1-10 will cross my mind. Once 7 is revealed as the answer it is easy for me to generate a false memory of having favored 7 when in fact 7 merely crossed my mind just as every other number did. It is easy to trick oneself. Even when recording a seemingly accurate prediction people often tend to ignore the odds of their prediction. I see this in sports all the time. People will say "I knew it" after a specific team wins. In reality though simply picking the winner of a sports game between 2 rivals isn't miraculous which is why gambling houses always have a line. If you want to win money you need to predict who will win and cover the spread. Predictions need to be specific. If I wake up every morning and write down key words from then I saw in a dream that list of words by the end of the week could look like anything. Maybe Monday's dream I saw a Japanese styled ship so I write down "Japan". Then on Thursdays I dream about flying through my neighbor so I write down "flying". Then over the weekend there is a Japanese airline crash. It would be real easy to convince myself I predicted it. Which is why in science an experiment must be observable and repeatable.

 

@Dave Moore, I too have very vivid dreams. I even created a thread here where wrote a few out in moderate detail.

www.scienceforums.net/topic/83722-dreams/

 

Beyond the thread I created I record many of my dreams. There have been several times I have had the feeling of deja vu or precognition based on something I previously saw in a dream. However every time I go back and read what I actually wrote down it never matches. I find that with time my memory of the dream fails to be accurate.

 

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/83722-dreams/

Edited by Ten oz
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I once dreamed that a girl I dated said to me "please don't ask me to stop this" whilst laying next to me in her bed - It was vivid and I could even look and see what top she was wearing and how her hair fell across her face as she was looking at me lovingly. A few days later I went to visit her and we ended up going to her room... after a while, we were laying there and she looked at me and I was reminded of my dream (she was wearing the same top and hair) and she said those words exactly like in my dream. wow. I dreamed of another girl too and something similar happened...

 

 

.... that being said - I had a very vivid dream about another girl I liked and got quite excited because I had liked her for ages - we went out for a drink and I was thinking "nice, this going the same way as my dream"... but alas.. that was one dream that did not come true in the end.... well, not beyond the drinks anyway - I was pretty sure I was on to a winner with her too... not sure how I blew it, lol.

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