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Entropy & Time


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#1 SophiaRivera007

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:46 AM

Hello everyone,

Last day I had debate with my friend. She asked me this question:

 

Does entropy increase with time ? Or Does it make Time?

 

I have think on it but I couldn't answer it. Can anyone please help me to find this answer.


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#2 swansont

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 10:55 AM

Entropy can't decrease with time in an isolated system. It can decrease locally in a non-isolated system, and it can stay the same. 


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#3 Lord Antares

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:00 PM

/cut

 

You are correct, but I think you misinterpreted the question. It was an either/or question.

 

But it's not a really meaningful one. Time isn't a real physical entity, it doesn't exist as such. We defined time to be a continued progression of events measured in chronological order. Or you could say, a countinued increase in entropy, if you will.

 

So yeah, entropy increases with time. Saying that it makes time is also correct in a way, but it isn't all that meaningful.


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#4 studiot

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:09 PM

 

You are correct, but I think you misinterpreted the question. It was an either/or question.

 

But it's not a really meaningful one. Time isn't a real physical entity, it doesn't exist as such. We defined time to be a continued progression of events measured in chronological order. Or you could say, a countinued increase in entropy, if you will.

 

So yeah, entropy increases with time. Saying that it makes time is also correct in a way, but it isn't all that meaningful.

 

Note Swansont also said entropy can remain the same.

That is not the same as entropy increases unconditionally with time.


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#5 swansont

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:13 PM

You are correct, but I think you misinterpreted the question. It was an either/or question.

 
But it's not an either/or situation. It's a false dichotomy.
 

But it's not a really meaningful one. Time isn't a real physical entity, it doesn't exist as such. We defined time to be a continued progression of events measured in chronological order. Or you could say, a countinued increase in entropy, if you will.
 
So yeah, entropy increases with time. Saying that it makes time is also correct in a way, but it isn't all that meaningful.


Entropy isn't a physical entity either. Time doesn't correlate to how much entropy increases, and time doesn't run backwards in regions where entropy decreases.
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#6 Lord Antares

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:35 PM

 

Note Swansont also said entropy can remain the same.

That is not the same as entropy increases unconditionally with time.

 

I know but that's not what she asked. She simply asked does time cause entropy, or does entropy cause time. That's the question. 

 

 

 
But it's not an either/or situation. It's a false dichotomy.
 

Entropy isn't a physical entity either. Time doesn't correlate to how much entropy increases, and time doesn't run backwards in regions where entropy decreases.

 

I know. I agree with you. It is false dichotomy.

 

It does correlate with time in isolated systems. I know this is isn't correct in all cases, but the question was what causes what and I attempted to answer.


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#7 swansont

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 12:50 PM

 

I know but that's not what she asked. She simply asked does time cause entropy, or does entropy cause time. That's the question. 

 

 

No, that wasn't it. "Does entropy increase with time ?"


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#8 Lord Antares

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 01:12 PM

OR does it make time. Trust me, it was an either/or question on her part.

So therefore, she asked what causes what. 


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#9 swansont

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 01:27 PM

OR does it make time. Trust me, it was an either/or question on her part.

So therefore, she asked what causes what. 

 

 

I can't believe this conversation is happening. This isn't a case of e.g. faulty memory from a conversation. The question is written. You can go back and read it as many times as you wish. "Does entropy cause time" is not written anywhere in the OP. That's an interpretation of yours.

 

Meanwhile, I answered a question that was asked.  


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#10 Lord Antares

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 01:49 PM

 

 

"Does entropy cause time" is not written anywhere in the OP. 

 

 

?????

But it is:

 


 

 

Or Does it make Time?

 

 

Cause equals make in this context, especially following the previous question. And it seems that another person agrees with my interpretation. Is he an idiot as well?

 

 

Meanwhile, I answered a question that was asked.  

 

 

I'm sorry that you feel the need to be so condescending towards me. I never meant to start a fight, I was discussing this rationally, so your tone is unwarranted.

I have never and will never question your knowledge of physics, but you misunderstood the question. If you are better at physics than me, does that mean that you will always interpet the pragmatics of a conversation better than me? No, of course it doesn't.


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#11 studiot

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 02:22 PM

Hey fellas, I count two questions marks in the OP which makes two questions.

 

So both are right in the question they choose to answer, if they are only going to address one.

 

And both are wrong if they dismiss the other question.


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#12 Lord Antares

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 03:08 PM

I'm making the case that it's one question, nevermind the two question marks.

 

The same way that ''is the earth rotating around the sun or is the sun rotating around the earth?'' is one question, so is ''Does entropy increase with time ? Or Does it make Time?''.

The question about the earth and sun doesn't need two answers. It needs one answer and therefore, it contains one question. The same is true for the question in the OP.

 

Swansont is unjustly saying this is nonsense.
 


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#13 swansont

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 03:44 PM

 

 

?????

 .

 

 

Sorry, I wrote that backwards. Does time cause entropy does not appear.


I'm making the case that it's one question, nevermind the two question marks.

 

The same way that ''is the earth rotating around the sun or is the sun rotating around the earth?'' is one question, so is ''Does entropy increase with time ? Or Does it make Time?''.

The question about the earth and sun doesn't need two answers. It needs one answer and therefore, it contains one question. The same is true for the question in the OP.

 

Swansont is unjustly saying this is nonsense.
 

 

If there can be another answer, it is nonsense. Entropy can increase with time without being caused by time.  

 

Asking if entropy increases with time and if it causes time is not an either/or situation. It's two different questions about entropy.  


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#14 Lord Antares

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 06:49 PM

Sorry, I wrote that backwards. Does time cause entropy does not appear.

 

No, it doesn't because it was perhaps written clumsily, but can you not deduce that this is what is being asked from the pragmatics of the question?

 

You know why your conclusion does not make sense in this case? Because by knowing the definition of entropy, she would know the answer to her question. She knows entropy increases with time (not always as you said, but this is besides the point and off-topic). It would be similar to someone asking ''does a black hole suck things in?''. You would expect them to know the answer to that if they know what a black hole is, right? Maybe it's not a very good analogy, but I think it applies here.

 

Also, she said she has been thinking about this. She can very, very easily find out if entropy increases with time, so that's more indication that she wasn't asking that question.

 

The addition of the IF clause is for me the biggest indication that she is asking an either/or question. I think I could go on finding more indication here but you get what I am trying to say, hopefully.

 

 

Entropy can increase with time without being caused by time.

 

Tell that to the OP, not me. This is a better answer.


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#15 Sriman Dutta

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 06:49 PM

The concept of entropy is related to the tendency of nature to become disorderly with the increase in internal energy. Defining entropy as the logarithmic value of the number of possible microstates of any thermodynamic system also shows entropy is related to matter's physical and thermodynamic properties.


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#16 davidivad

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Posted 27 January 2017 - 07:31 PM

Hello everyone,

Last day I had debate with my friend. She asked me this question:

 

Does entropy increase with time ? Or Does it make Time?

 

I have think on it but I couldn't answer it. Can anyone please help me to find this answer.

en·tro·py
ˈentrəpē/
noun
 
  1. 1.
    PHYSICS
    a thermodynamic quantity representing the unavailability of a system's thermal energy for conversion into mechanical work, often interpreted as the degree of disorder or randomness in the system.
     
     
     

    entropy can increase with time until there is no more thermal difference.

    it does not cause time.

    it is just a measurement of disorder in a system.

     

     

     

     


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