beecee

Despite automation and its inevitable improvement, The human need for adventure, exploration and boots on the ground? Because its there? https://www.rei.com/blog/snowsports/the-nature-fix-why-were-hardwired-for-adventure#:~:text=The thirst for new%2C exciting,are meant to seek adventure.&text=Studies have shown that adventure,emotional resiliency and social bonding. https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-2018/january-2018/adventure-important-part-being-human https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080625122945.htm

I don't really see that as extraordinary, despite probable differences. North Korea making it a tri-nations?

Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? (an old biblical passage or words to that effect) Facts actually support my claim of speciality: We are the only planet known to support life. And until we find the extraordinary evidence of Alien life, that speciality holds. And before you as usual, take me out of context, I certainly understand and agree that in the great scheme of things, (the universe as a whole) we are nothing more then a mote of dust floating in a sunbeam. See Carl Sagan's "Pale Blue Dot" imo one of the 20th century's greatest educators.

Thanks. Our team has come a long way since sandpapergate and is now well balanced with a host of express bowlers to chose from, ( and a top spinner in Nathan Lyon) and a number of world class batsman. On your OP, and the track preservation, great work!

Since we seem to be into all things Oz at the moment, another Australian icon like Slim Dusty was John Williamson. Here he is singing a song called "True Blue" at Australia Zoo, during a memorial service after the death of Steve Irwin. Quite touching.

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-earth.html Earth's water was around before Earth: To understand how life emerged, scientists investigate the chemistry of carbon and water. In the case of water, they track the various forms, or isotopes, of its constituent hydrogen and oxygen atoms over the history of the universe, like a giant treasure hunt. Researchers from the CNRS, Paris-Saclay University, the French Alternative Energies and Atomic Energy Commission (CEA), and the University of Pau and the Pays de l'Adour (UPPA), with support from the Muséum National d'Histoire Naturelle (MNHN), have followed the trail of the isotopic composition of water back to the start of the solar system, in the inner regions where Earth and the other terrestrial planets were formed. more at link................... the paper: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41550-021-01595-7 Determination of the initial hydrogen isotopic composition of the solar system: Abstract: The initial isotopic composition of water in the Solar System is of paramount importance to understanding the origin of water on planetary bodies but remains unknown, despite numerous studies1,2,3,4,5. Here we use the isotopic composition of hydrogen in calcium–aluminium-rich inclusions (CAIs) from primitive meteorites, the oldest Solar System rocks, to establish the hydrogen isotopic composition of water at the onset of Solar System formation. We report the hydrogen isotopic composition of nominally anhydrous minerals from CAI fragments trapped in a once-melted host CAI. Primary minerals have extremely low D/H ratios, with δD values down to −850‰, recording the trapping of nebular hydrogen. Minerals rich in oxidised iron formed before the capture of the fragments record the existence of a nebular gas reservoir with an oxygen fugacity substantially above the solar value and a D/H ratio within 20% of that of the Earth’s oceans. Hydrogen isotopes also correlate with oxygen and nitrogen isotopes, indicating that planetary reservoirs of volatile elements formed within the first 2 × 105 years of the Solar System, during the main CAI formation epoch. We propose that the isotopic composition of inner Solar System water was established during the collapse of the protosolar cloud core owing to a massive admixture of interstellar water.

From APOD and I believe worth an entry in this thread. Reminds me somewhat of the Hubble deep field. The Fornax Cluster of Galaxies Image Credit & Copyright: Marco Lorenzi, Angus Lau, Tommy Tse Explanation: Named for the southern constellation toward which most of its galaxies can be found, the Fornax Cluster is one of the closest clusters of galaxies. About 62 million light-years away, it is almost 20 times more distant than our neighboring Andromeda Galaxy, and only about 10 percent farther than the better known and more populated Virgo Galaxy Cluster. Seen across this two degree wide field-of-view, almost every yellowish splotch on the image is an elliptical galaxy in the Fornax cluster. Elliptical galaxies NGC 1399 and NGC 1404 are the dominant, bright cluster members toward the upper left (but not the spiky foreground stars). A standout barred spiral galaxy NGC 1365 is visible on the lower right as a prominent Fornax cluster member.

That's Rolf Harris, of "Tie me Kangaroo down Sport" fame, and of course the "Wobble board" Slim was also married to one half of the McKean sisters, Joy, another old Australain C+W singing duo. One of my favourite Slim Dusty songs was the following...I hope I havn't put it up before??

Let's put it this way old Son, any bias I do have, ( and as mentioned to you before) is that of science and the scientific methodology and my family and friends. First car ever when I was a 17 year old, hairy arse brat was a '38 oldsmobile I picked up for $25. First proper car was a Mazda 800. I once had a Holden Cruz. I didn't expect you to feel any different either.

Slim Dusty and Daughter Anne Kirkpatrick, singing, "Drovin all over this land

Fervency? I hadn't ever really considered it until genady raised the topic. I have also always "fancied" panspermia as a viable reason for Earth based abiogenesis. Why do I find it compelling? Let's see, (1) The proposers seem to understand the protection protocol regarding known life and were always going to go on those grounds, (2) On those premises, the probabilty of any unknown microbes 5kms down is low, (3) If there was any microbrial lifeform, it would likley have been in that state of evolution for millions of years and found its evolutionary niche, as per our octopus friends and the silly notion they could possibly evolve into space faring entities (4) The liklelyhood of affecting it anyway would also have a low probability, (5) So far we Earth is the only planet known to harbour life,(6) we/Earth do have a "use by date "(6) Therefor it is ( as Mautner puts it) our duty and right to spread that life around the galaxy as per the accepted protocol, (7) I reject totally that we shouldn't be spreading bacteria to otherwise sterile regions of space, as we actually have done it at least five times before, (8) despite the misgivings from the doomsayers and nayers, I see it as science and worthwhile, irrespective of the fact that the results may never be known, (9) The seeded planet could also presumably be a second home, for humans in the distant future, when the planet reaches its "use by date" and we have the technology to build viable space ships, and (10) I absolutely see nothing immoral or wrong about the whole project, along with the reputable support it already has, and find some of the so called opposition expressed as rather pretentious. I didn't say it was deliberate, as I believe I raised the issue first to make a point. Yes you did, but the point I make is its still all life and the little germs in your mouth are only doing the what comes naturally. Plus I see your reasoning as flimsy. With all due respect, the project was never going to be easy, and as an example a couple of the IMO important scientific projects undertaken in recent times, were not always updated, even on science sites.eg: GPB, New Horizons. Perhaps there busy actually working out the pros and cons, who knows? While I have already answered that, I would like to add to it. Perhaps you are mistaking my efforts in answering all genuine questions put to me, (some irrelevant, some cryptic ) as this so called fervency. That will continue of course and is always my intention.

Minority or not you have the right to express it but I fervently, along with the majority disagree with that pessimisitc assessment. It certainly isn't moving as fast as predicted, or as hoped for, but that's poor reason to seemingly imagine a lid being slammed on it. But Ken, with all due respect, this is essentially about Panspermia, and seeding probable sterile planets, which we obviously also disagree on. (even if it was I that first raised the issues you mentioned, to make a point) )

I smell at least some seeds of doubt in that rather pretentious statement. 🤭 Apologies, I badly worded that. I certainly did not mean the same examples of life as elsewhere. I was making an example of your apparent hypocrisy in caring about uncertain microbrial life 5kms down on an otherwise sterile planet, to murdering (excuse the dramatic word) the bacteria in your mouth.

Yes a good point, and one I found as reasons to go ahead. Still worth considering. Yes, he faces the controversy honestly and I can understand that. It is still drawing a long bow to say once it is understaken, that it isn't science, simply because it is going to take millenia as I already mentioned. Have you did any searches on Professor Mautner, research Professor of Chemistry at Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, Virginia.who seems to have far more enthusiasm for the experiment. http://www.panspermia-society.com/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_N._Mautner https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-31042-8_11 Your article also concludes, https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~gros/PDF/PAPERS/2019_Gros_ExoPlanetaryProtection_ActaAstronautica.pdf "Protecting life on exoplanets for the sake of science is in analogy not a valid rational, as it could be studied in any case only on time scales far exceeding standard human planning horizons." https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-319-31042-8_11 Abstract: It is the human purpose to propagate life. This objective can be realized best in space, where life can have an immense future, giving our existence a cosmic purpose. again from the same link...................https://itp.uni-frankfurt.de/~gros/PDF/PAPERS/2019_Gros_ExoPlanetaryProtection_ActaAstronautica.pdf . Are oxygen planets sterile? The chemical environments of oxygen planets, that is of planets disposing of a substantial amount of primordial atmospheric oxygen, are expected to differ substantially from the one of archean earth. The origins of life on earth are yet not understood [45], it is however clear that abiogenesis may occur only in microstructured chemo-physical reaction environments [46] that are driven by a sustained energy source [47], as realized within the alkaline hydrothermal vent scenario [48]. Potential birthing places of life such as submarine alkaline vents are conjectured furthermore to be characterized by steep electrochemical concentration gradients [49], as a necessary precondition for the emergence of prebiotic vectorial reaction pathways. Primordial oxygen, when present, could disrupt however the formation of these electronchemical disequilibria [50]. An important point in this context is a well-known relationship between oxygen and cellular energy,1 namely that the synthesis of the chemical constituents of cells, like amino acids, bases and lipids, from glucose and ammonium, demands about 13 times more energy per cell in the presence of O2 than in the absence of oxygen [51,52]. It is hence conceivable that the emergence of life could be preempted on otherwise habitable M-dwarf planets by the presence of primordial oxygen. A substantial amount of future research effort is clearly warranted in order to corroborate, or to disprove this presumption. In case, we would live in a galaxy where habitable but sterile planets abound. Oxygen planets would then be prime candidates for Genesis missions. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: also under "Planetary protection for human benefit' it concludes..."Protecting the rudimentary biosphere of an exoplanet for science purposes is hence not as relevant as it is for solar system bodies". ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Most all of that I have already posted on anyway.

So according to your life philosophy, we stagnate on planet Earth, despite obtaing continuing advanced knowledge and technologies that can take us to the Moon and beyond. Are you serious, or just being controversial for controversy sake? I didn't say they were the same, but it is all life. So you differentiate in chosing to murder bacterial content in your mouth, as opposed to some low probablity presence of bacterial life 5kms deep on an otherwise sterile world. Yes,I agree, but we are educating people as to the abnoxious killing, abusing, displacing of the other species on this Earth...multicell species of course, I'm not really that concerned (as the genesis project protocol is) with microbrail stuff 5 kms under my feet. And no. I certainly am not more powerful then any of my fellow human beings, some that I despise, (those that kill,abuse, and displace any species)and others that I respect. But what has this to do with seeding sterile planets? (Don't be too concerned, just some returning sarcasm) You are being overly dramatic again. We are talking about probable sterile planets. No, I'm not wrong. Anything taken to extreme, (including pacifism and opinions on sympathies for Hitler for example, you saw that in another thread) will end up approaching stupidity and fanaticism....and that includes extremes of left and right politics. I could give many examples, but it would be off topic. Methinks you need that beer badly! Not sure, but maybe waiting for improvements in solar sail technology and other aspects of engineering in slowing the craft down after approaching its target? Maybe pidegeon holed at this time, until such technological improvements eventuate? But in reality, as I have mentioned, we have already sent five craft to leave or approaching leaving the solar system, four with Earth messages.

Another issue which no one has yet commented on, and which was one of the aspects that got my support..... https://rekearney.com/2017/12/14/the-genesis-project-old-organisms-new-planets/ "It is believed that there are billions of habitable planets in our galaxy, which could become the target for Project Genesis. These planets are known as ‘oxygen’ planets, and revolve around M-dwarfs. Although oxygen is necessary for the sustenance of life, their oxygen rich atmospheres are the reason why complex organisms cannot develop. Astronomers are focused on finding planets that are around M-stars, which are relatively common but can be very dim, to introduce complex life. The planets have become oxygen rich because of the UV radiation emitted by the star during its cooling phase, which can take between 100 million to 1 billion years, which split the water on the planets into hydrogen and oxygen molecules. Hydrogen will then escape the planet’s atmosphere, leaving the oxygen behind. Even though oxygen is necessary for the maintenance of life, this arise from chemical disassociation (not plant life), results in the planet becoming barren. It can, however, sustain life once it has been introduced". ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Yes, a morally correct decision and undertaking!!! The same as the bacteria you kill in your mouth every morning and night? My, sorry our place in the universe is having evolved to where and what we are now, able to contemplate these ideas and undertake science to gain knowledge. It's all called pacifism taken to a ridiculous degree. So much so, as to be illogical. I'm also a pacifist, but I am not going to turn the other cheek if some idiot smacks me in the mouth, no matter how poor his upbringing was. I'm pretty sure you do see the relevance.

Another link, that expressed an earlier thought of mine as highlighted and worth noting here... https://rekearney.com/2017/12/14/the-genesis-project-old-organisms-new-planets/ The article starts as follows... The Genesis Project – Old Organisms, New Planets Dr. Claudius Gros is the mastermind behind the proposal of the Genesis Project, which plans to seed habitable planets in our galaxy with life. These organisms began to develop 500 million years ago, on Earth, which was approximately 4 billion years after the planet’s birth. Introducing simple organisms to these planets will cause their development to move at a much quicker pace and, over time, they will become more complex. in conclusion...... "Even though many people have been supportive of the proposition, there are others that oppose The Genesis Project. Religious groups believe that sending organisms to other planets would be man ‘playing at being God.’ Others maintain that we should not interfere with the progression of these planets, as there is no real benefit to Earth from these experiments. Many scientists believe that more effort should be put into maintaining our planet, and developing space projects exclusively for the benefit of mankind, than concern with the progression of other planets'. I see it as relevent as anything else we have discussed within this thread. Afterall dimreeper is apparently a pacifist, and that may have a bearing on his opinion and bias...just as perhaps your philosophical life beliefs may have a bearing on your opinion and bias. I also see it as drawing an aweful long bow, to suggest that any microbrial basic lifeform is "minding its own business" and has any idea about its "home planet' I see it as science. I see it as progressive. I see it as our duty. I see it as having plenty of reputable scientific support. I also see it as controversial. But then again, many new endeavours, no matter how apparently helpful to mankind, will always be controversial to some. EG: mandatory vaccinations for covid...conspiracy that covid even exists. In esence, what I am saying, is no matter what project or experiment anyone will come up with, there will always be some oppostion...sometimes opposition for opposition's sake.

We all understand that mathematics is the language of physics, and that the mathematical probabilties of a sterile planet when "project Genesis " is undertaken will always be considered with the protocol that will be in place. It's alway nice being a pacifist dimreeper, but like any "quality" when taken too far, ( like having sympathy for the likes of Hitler or other perpetrators of hideous crimes) It can become a hindrance to logical reasoning. Worth considering also that we already have five probes that are emissaries that have left or are about to leave the solar system, all (bar one) with messages of greetings from Earth, and all probably less then fully santised. Yes, they will already have microbrial passengers, that may or may not seed another planet/moon. Another question, posed in one of the many links I have given, supporting project Genesis, mentions a variation in seeding planetary accretion disks. You havn't as yet given your view on that? Let's see to what degrees of illogic that your passiveness takes you. Essentialy the Genesis experiment has already been undertaken, considering the five previously mentioned probes. Did you protest about that? Will you protest when the next project Genesis is undertaken? Obviously it will take millenia for any multicellular life to develop, so why all the pretentious crap, about morals etc? The main benefit that I see, is that as our Sun approaches its "use by date" a couple of billion years hence, (if of course we are still around) our probable stage of advancement then, could see us, ( humanity) capable of generation type star ships and/or even relativisitic travel, perhaps. We could then have a new probable home to go to. Wishful thinking? Grandeur dreams? No more wishful and grandeur then fabricating reasons about microrganisms that "perhaps" may exist 5 kms down, and that perhaps, we may affect in some terrible way, (do you get moral headaches when brushing your teeth and practising eradication of most of your mouth bacteria?) and not the least, the unsupported moral nonsense, that we have no right to export life beyond our Earth, when we have already likely done it. You're probably a nice bloke dimreeper, and probably like Peterkin if you ever make it to the land down under, I would be happy to buy you a beer, take you to the greatest game of all, and as a bonus, Maroubra or Bondi beach! despite all our passive differences. 😉

https://phys.org/news/2022-02-zircon-one-off-gift-mars.html Shocked zircon find a 'one-off gift' from Mars: Curtin University researchers studying a Martian meteorite have found the first evidence of high-intensity damage caused by asteroid impact, in findings that have implications for understanding when conditions suitable for life may have existed on early Mars. Published in leading journal Science Advances, the research examined grains of the mineral zircon in Martian meteorite NWA 7034. The meteorite, colloquially known as "Black Beauty", is a rare sample of the surface of Mars. The original 320-gram rock was found in northern Africa and first reported in 2013. Lead author Morgan Cox, a Ph.D. candidate from Curtin's Space Science and Technology Centre (SSTC) in the School of Earth and Planetary Sciences, described the meteorite as a collection of broken rock fragments and minerals, mostly basalt, that solidified and became a rock over time. A zircon found inside the meteorite preserves evidence of damage that only occurs during large meteorite impacts. more at link............. the paper: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abl7497 Impact and habitability scenarios for early Mars revisited based on a 4.45-Ga shocked zircon in regolith breccia: Abstract After formation of a primordial crust, early impacts influenced when habitable conditions may have occurred on Mars. Martian meteorite Northwest Africa (NWA) 7034 is a regolith breccia that contains remnants of the earliest Martian crust. The paucity of shock deformation in NWA 7034 was previously cited as recording a decline in giant impacts by 4.48 billion years and evidence for habitable Mars by 4.2 billion years ago. We present new evidence of high-pressure shock effects in a 4.45–billion year–old zircon from the matrix of NWA 7034. The zircon contains {112} shock twins formed in the central uplift of a complex impact structure after 4.45 billion years and records impact pressures of 20 to 30 gigapascals. The zircon represents the highest shock level reported in NWA 7034 and paired rocks and provides direct physical evidence of large impacts, some potentially life-affecting, that persisted on Mars after 4.48 billion years.

Think probabilty over possibility, and facts like they have already probably been down their for 400 billion years, and simply found their niche. You know, like our real smart intellgent octopus friends. Likewise, yet it was you who raised the teacher/priest analogy (which I don't really object to) For example, I respect the writings and "teacher" values of the likes of Richard Feynman just to name one. My observations though of yourself is that your efforts to see beyond are curtailed somewhat. I don't believe I have a bias. In fact I havn't really given much thought to the idea of a "project Genesis" until Genady raised it. After researching the data on the reality of such a project, and reading the pros and cons, my reasonings for its moral and scientific acceptance outweigh the nay sayers and doom sayers reasonings and arguments, as rather improbable. Have you by chance considered the possibility of your own bias? Let me say that like Peterkin, I find you an interesting species. 😉

I still use it in practise, at the beach, on the roof, all the appropriate places. 😉 I picked up the binnacle and compass at a ship's chandler a few years ago for $400.

Yes, along of course with personal grudges which is why for the first time ever, I have someone on ignore. Obviously it aint you, you lucky bloke you! 😉 No, simply a morally correct protocol which when undertaken will be adhered to, to the best of our abilities. really Peterkin, your dramatisation borders on amazing....fleeing, now immolation. 🤕 Damn! I keep missing those. You take it eay and look after yourself. remember when you make it to Oz, you'll have a schooner waiting and tickets to the greatest game of all! 😁

OK, I will accept that, along with of course you would be brushing your teeth each morning and night. My point is sometimes people do have philosophical and/or religious agendas. No, I claim the universe doesn't give a stuff, it evolves/expands, probably according to laws instilled at the instant of the BB and before, with the hypothetical quantum foam. We, life (abiogensis) is just a part of that. (1) That is why murder is a crime. (2) Most all life on Earth is valuable, yes. (3) Who said that? Smells like more dramatism. (4) Life is the property of who is experiencing that life, yes. Sorry for my lack of philosophical banter, I prefer a non complicated simple answer where possible. (5)Yes, being the only known advanced form of life in the universe, most certainly yes, that is our moral responsiblity and duty...until we find our equal. (6) With regards to science, yes. Do you not see the benefit in other high cost projects? eg ISS, LHC, JWST, Mercury/Gemini/Apollo programmes. Would you prefer that science simply stops? (7) We are a somewhat weird and at the same time interesting species ( Alien to Ellie Arroway) We are improving though, you agree. I mean such things as slavery the inquisition of the church etc etc, improved agriculture and virus vaccines etc etc. Agreed, (1) Under the strict protocol, there is nothing morally wrong with the Genesis Mission. (2)No, they are promoting life in a universe that as yet, has not revealed any other life elsewhere. You have a weird strange way of expressing things.Fleeing? ☺️ We are doing science and exploring, and just as seeding a known sterile planet is within our rights, so to is finding another Earth or similar. What have you against extending our species for as long as we can?

And likewise I certainly have given ample reasons and reputable links discussing why it is science and how we are obliged to undertake such a scheme one day. And it will happen. But all that has been said also. That's your belief...My point is I have not really put any fanciful time limit on these grand space dreams, just that they will happen. Such as https://www.nasa.gov/specials/artemis/ I must admit though I find it strange with regards to your dismissfull pessimism on such endeavours. I'm not going to insult you, and I hope you don't insult me again. You also seem to have expertise far above mine, but probably so to does Jordan Peterson, whose philosophies I abhore. What do you believe should be the limitation of human space endeavours? Did you agree with the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo projects to get men to the Moon? I suppose it is off topic, and I may start a thread with those questions in mind and your reaction/s to them. We certainly are not going to get any further with the Panspermia Genesis project. I have expressed my views with that, and supported them with reputable links. Your view is noted, but obviously rejected.

You seem to be getting rather coy after six pages? Or just avoiding honestly answering the question? Why is that? No evidence of what? Life elsewhere? All the more reason to spread life where we can. I'll reiterate after your uncalled for alteration... I don't see it as a matter of defence or attack. I see it as the result of the evolution of space and time, with life at the apex, and with knowledge waiting to be discovered/learnt. It will happen in the course of time...that's progress, that's science. Let me help...... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis In biology, abiogenesis or the origin of life[3][4][5][a] is the natural process by which life has arisen from non-living matter, such as simple organic compounds.[6][4][7][8] While the details of this process are still unknown, the prevailing scientific hypothesis is that the transition from non-living to living entities was not a single event, but an evolutionary process of increasing complexity that involved molecular self-replication, self-assembly, autocatalysis, and the emergence of cell membranes.[9][10][11] Although the occurrence of abiogenesis is uncontroversial among scientists, its possible mechanisms are poorly understood. There are several principles and hypotheses for how abiogenesis could have occurred.