Debate XII - Millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust (4th Sept 2004)
 

Debate XII - LucidDreamer vs. Astrid


Topic:
The Holocaust happened. Millions of Jews were killed in the Holocaust. Gas chambers were used to kill Jews during the Holocaust.


LucidDreamer now has 48 hours to make his opening argument. This will be a 5 round battle -- 5 posts from each contestant in a point-counterpoint method. No contestant may make two posts in a row.


All posts to this thread will be deleted unless they are made by one of the two contenders.

By posting each contestant agrees to the rules for debate as stated in the Debate Forum Guidelines

Holocaust: There is too much evidence to doubt
 

I intend to prove that the Holocaust happened. I will show that the Nazis deliberately and efficiently murdered millions of Jews with lethal gas, mass shootings, forced starvation, beatings, harsh labor, and cremation. The concentration camps were not simply work camps were some Jews died inadvertently from forced labor. They were camps of death, cruelty, and hatred. The concentration camps were the killing grounds for the Nazi’s plan for the complete genocide of the Jewish people.

I am passionate about this topic. I believe knowing the truth about the Holocaust is important. Knowing the truth of any subject is valuable, but knowing the truth about man’s capacity for evil under extreme conditions is the most telling of any subject. By understanding its history we can understand how it occurred. By understanding its roots we can understand why it occurred. By equipping ourselves with the truth of the Holocaust we can hope to avoid repeating it. Most importantly, I am doing this because 6 million Jews were murdered and the world should never forget.

However, after reviewing the evidence, if we find that the Holocaust did not occur, or did not occur to the extent that we thought, then we must know this too. But the evidence does not show this. The evidence for the Holocaust in which millions of Jews were systematically murdered is very strong. I will show that the Nazis used many methods for the annihilation of the Jews, including lethal gas. I will provide pictures, statements from Holocaust survivors and their tormentors, documents, excerpts from diaries, film footage, and census data to prove my argument. I will provide a multitude of evidence so that any reasonable man/woman must conclude that Holocaust, as described by the bulk of historians, was real.

The Evidence:

Euthanasia

It’s hard to understand how an organization as ruthless as the Nazi’s formed. There are many factors that led to the Nazi’s cruel treatment of the Jews: one of them, I am sorry to say as an American, was a Eugenics program modeled after the American’s own Eugenics program. This program gained momentum in the 1930’s where mental patients were systematically sterilized. Germanys emerging fascist regime admired America’s genetic purification program and began their own program, envisioning a perfect Aryan nation.

America’s Eugenics program concentrated on removing certain individuals from the gene pool who were thought to have “inferior genes.” The Nazi’s program took it one step farther and decided that certain races were inherently inferior. They began a program that was sometimes referred to as racial purification or racial hygiene where some races, and especially Jews, were considered inferior (1).

The Nazi’s started a sterilization program similar to Americas, but again the Germans took it one step further and began a Euthanasia program. This program involved the murder of an estimated 100,000 metal and handicapped patients. They focused on insanity, retardation, and mental patients with Negro, Gypsy, or Jewish blood. This is where the Nazis’ mass murder by gas began; the patients were killed with CO gas and then cremated (1).
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...euthanasia.htm

The Final Solution

Murdering the Jews did not occur by random incidents of individual cruelty. The Holocaust was a planned and organized program, dubbed the final solution. The Final Solution’s creator was Adolph Hitler. Hitler and the Nazis, who were now expert propagandists, knew that to avoid international outcry he needed to veil his plan to annihilate the Jews in secrecy. The genocide of the Jews was called “the final solution,” the transport to the death camps was called “resettlement”, the Jews in the boxcars were referred to as transport or the load, the mass murders by gassing were called “special treatments”, which by the way was the same term they used during the euthanasia gassings. Even though the Nazi’s took great pains to cloak the Holocaust in secrecy there are still numerous examples of speeches and documents that give them away

Nazi speeches and documents
 Hitler

Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe

And we say that the war will not end as the Jews imagine it will, namely with the uprooting of the Aryans, but the result of this war will be the complete annihilation of the Jews.

 Himmler (The SS man in charge of the Holocaust: Its architect)

"The difficult decision has to be taken, to cause this Volk [people] to disappear from the earth."

"…..Anti-Semitism is exactly the same as delousing. Getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology. It is a matter of cleanliness."

I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish race. It's one of those things it is easy to talk about, "the Jewish race is being exterminated", says one party member, "that's quite clear, it's in our program, elimination of the Jews, and we're doing it, exterminating them"….. Most of you know what it means when 100 corpses are lying side by side, or 500, or 1,000….

A report from Himmler to Hitler; Jews executed:
31,246, 165,282, 95,735 ,70,948 (for the months of August ,September, October ,November of 1942)
Source: http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt

The Gas chambers

Gassings in the Nazi death camps were given a special euphemism of their own; they were called special treatments. One of the most telling stories of the Holocaust comes from a prisoner named Filip Muller. Muller was a member of the work crew that was in charge of gassing the incoming victims in the gas chambers and then burning their bodies in the crematoriums. In German the name of the his unit was called the Sonderkommando. He was recruited early into the Sonderkommandos and worked the gas chambers and crematoriums for 3 years.. Muller worked on the death camp crew at Auschwitz 2.
The other Nazi death camps besides Auschwitz were closed down late in the war leaving only Auschwitz in action. The prisoners of the death crews were an extreme treat to the Nazis so they tried to kill all of them after they closed down the camps. They succeeded in killing most of them. However some survived. A small group of Auschwitz’s Sonderkommandos escaped “selection” from the confusion that resulted from the arrival of the Russian troops at the end of the war. One of these men was Muller. In his book called “Eyewitness Auschwitz” he describes in vivid detail the annihilation of countless Jews in the gas chambers. Here is an excerpt from his book:

From the start this small ‘death workshop’, into whose gas chamber more than 700 people could be crammed, served to relieve the two extermination centers at Birkenau known as Bunker 1 and 2 these were two whitewashed farmhouses with thatched roofs, all that remained of the village of the Brzekinka. Converted into gas chambers they were sited to the west of the future crematoria 4 and 5. The people gassed here were simply buried in mass graves which had been dug near by(2).

There were other books written by the Sonderkomandos. Their stories are supported by the other Sonderkomandos, many members of the concentration camps, and many Nazis that worked in the camps.

Memorandum of Gestapo Headquarters, 15 June 1944

In amending my directive of June 20 1944, I request that those people subject to special treatment be sent to a crematorium to be cremated if possible.

http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt

The gas used in the gas chambers was called Zyclon B; it is lethal at 300 ppm.
Zyclon B is a pellet form of hydrogen cyanide that was poured into the gas chamber from above. Here is an excerpt from a Hans Stark:

At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children. As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. “

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz...tz-faq-06.html

 Einsatzgruppen (Specially Trained Mobile Killing Units)

The gas chambers at the concentration camps were not the only method of mass murder by gas that the Nazis used. Another method was gas trucks that used CO as a means to suffocate their victims.

Letter from Dr August Becker to SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rauff, 16 May 1942 [Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1946, Vol III, p. 418]

"The vans became so well known, that not only the authorities but also the civilian population called the van "death van", as soon as one of these vehicles appeared"

The application of gas usually is not undertaken correctly. In order to come to an end as fast as possible, the driver presses the accelerator to the fullest extent. By doing that the persons to be executed suffer death from suffocation and not death by dozing off as was planned. My directions now have proved that by correct adjustment of the levers death comes faster and the prisoners fall asleep peacefully.

Another document:

“Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 have been processed using three vans without any faults developing in the vehicles.
The vans are normally loaded with 9-10 people per square meter….. For a reduction in the numbers will necessitate a longer period of operation because the free spaces will have to be filled with CO…. Furthermore, it has been observed that the noise always begins when the doors are shut presumably because of fear brought on by the darkness.

Source: http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt

Demographic Statistics

"The Anglo-American committee who studied the issue estimated the number of Jewish victims at 5.7 million. This was based on population statistics. Here is the exact breakdown, country by country:"


Germany - 195,000
Austria - 53,000
Czechoslovakia - 255,000
Denmark - 1,500
France - 140,000
Belgium - 57,000
Luxemburg - 3,000
Norway - 1,000
Holland - 120,000
Italy - 20,000
Jugoslavia - 64,000
Greece - 64,000
Bulgaria - 5,000
Rumania - 530,000
Hungary - 200,000
Poland - 3,271,000
USSR - 1,050,000

Less dispersed refugees (308,000)

Total number of Jews killed 5,721,500
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...al1.html#qar01

Testimonies
The most compelling evidence of the Holocaust are the testimonies. There are literally thousands of holocaust survivors that have provided some form of testimony to record what happened to them. Along with the survivors are the testimonies of Nazi guards, doctors, soldiers, secretaries, tradesman, etc. From this testimony we are able to put together the Nazi’s plan for the annihilation of a race along with a good idea about the amount of people killed. Here are some of their testimonies:

A prisoner:

Musselmen" (long-term inmates reduced to starved walking corpses) to be killed in October 1944. "On the 13th of October two of my cousins were among 400 Musselmen processed that day. I told them the truth, and told them where to be in the gas chamber so they would die immediately without suffering."

A doctor:

“They then started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.”

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwitz...tz-faq-06.html
Revisionism
Revisionism is a term used to describe people who deny the Nazis purposely killed 6 million Jews. They have a few reasons for doing this but in my opinion the main reason is usually anti-Semitism. Of course they deny this, claiming only to be historians trying to uncover the truth. When confronted with the enormous amount of evidence for the Holocaust they usually claim that it was all created by a vast conspiracy of all-powerful, evil Jews.

They have a several tactics for spreading their propaganda. One favored tactic is to provide evidence that involves very technical issues with so many square feet of this, so many grams of this, plus so many barrels of that, which always equates to mean the Holocaust must not have happened. They use this method because they are aware that most people don’t have the technical knowledge to successfully refute these pre-made claims. When the Revisionist is confronted with a scientist or historian the claims are almost always easily refuted.

Another tactic is to concentrate on specific details instead of dealing with the mass of evidence. The evidence is extremely convincing so Revisionist will focus on some irregularity-something along the lines of one guard said this during his trial but in document 197 it says he was actually there 1 week earlier. Therefore the Holocaust is a hoax. But with a mountain of documents and testimonies there will always be some contradictions. The revisionist uses many tactics to spread his propaganda, but when comes down to it though, it’s all smoke and mirrors.

Conclusion
Astrid, my opponent in this debate, and I agreed to keep an open mind towards each other’s argument. After reviewing all of the evidence I am thoroughly convinced that the Holocaust happened. I am thoroughly convinced that a large number Gypsies, Russian POWs, and Poles were murdered during the Holocaust. I am also convinced that the Nazis purposely killed approxitmally 6 million Jews as part of their final solution. Furthermore the evidence is also overwhelming for the mass murders committed in the gas chambers.

The evidence includes the Nuremberg evidence, thousands of testimonies from survivors and Germans, pictures, numerous other documents, and the death camps themselves. Honestly I am surprised that anyone can come to any other conclusion after reading all of the evidence. I have actually cut my original post by half because it is simply too much to read. Even with the original post I still only covered maybe a thousandth of the total evidence. The Nazis went to great lengths to destroy all of the evidence to avoid war crimes trials, but they simply could not get rid of such a large undertaking. They should never get away with something so horrendous.

But if you need more, they say a picture is worth a thousand words:

Mass murder: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ermangirl.html
A Member of Einsatzgruppe About to Commit Murder: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...nsatzpic1.html

A place to burn the bodies: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...st/aumb15.html

Children Used in Medical Experiments: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...t/medkids.html

Empty zyclon-b canisters:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...ust/aumb5.html

Hundreds of other photographs here:
(1) The Holocaust And History by Berenbaum and Peck
(2) Eyewitness Auschwitz by Filip Muller

It is my belief that the Holocaust was largely propaganda and not nearly as many Jewish people died in it as we are currently led to beleive. I will also add that I resent the fact that people who believe as I do are automatically categorized as anti-semitic as you have stated in your argument. I am not anti-semtic and I do not appreciate beng considered so, nor do I admire the clearly ad hominem attack...

Below are some facts I have investigated which I intend to use in order to further prove my point regarding the Holocaust.

The Evidence:

Propaganda concerning the Holocaust began as early as 1900. Yes, you heard me right: 1900. Not 1941, not 1933 - 1900.

http://www.vho.org/store/p/80.jpg

D. Heddesheimer's revolutionary work "The First Holocaust" on Jewish Holocaust Claims during and after World War One.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/Image200s.gif

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/Image200s.gif

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/Image201s.gif

Gas Chamber Propaganda 1916.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/Image202s.gif

Gas Chamber Propaganda 1942. Click on picture to enlarge.

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/Image203s.gif

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/tfh/Image204s.gif

Gas Chamber Propaganda 1991, twice. Click on picture to enlarge.

The following question I present to my opponent is owed greatly to Don Heddesheimer, the author of, "The First Holocaust. Jewish Fund Raising Campaigns with Holocaust Claims During and After World War One." The title itself explains a lot.

The question is basically the following: Since when do we know that Six Million Jews died during the Holocaust of World War Two? The German mainstream Historian Hoffmann who was the first to use Holocaust revisionist arguments, also discovered that the Soviets used the Six Million Figure in their propaganda publications already as early as December 1944, at a time when nobody could possibly know the death toll yet. Heddesheimer has unearthed many articles mainly published in the New York Times between the End of World War One and 1927, which claim that at that time millions of Jews in Eastern Europe would face catastrophe by starvation and disease if they would not receive massive aid. Buzz words like Holocaust, Six Million, and extermination were all there. I have reproduced some sentences from the NYT articles on the cover of Heddesheimer's book. The most striking example, which is known already for quite a while, was published in the October 31 issue of the magazine The American Hebrew in 1919 by Martin H. Glynn, who had been governor of the State of New York at the end of World War One. In this article we read sentences like these:

"From across the sea, six million men and women call to us for help [...] six million human beings. [...] Six million men and women are dying [...] in the threatened holocaust of human life [...] six million famished men and women. Six million men and women are dying [...]"

Heddesheimer also proves that these claims were all fraudulent. He even shows that as early as 1900 Zionists claimed that six million suffering Jews in Europe would be a good argument for Zionism.You see, Holocaust propaganda is much older than World War Two. To make people realize this is such an eye opener that after such a revelation most people will accept the possibility that things may have been made up.Another series parallel to a century of almost uninterrupted Holocaust propaganda is that related to gas chambers. Let me show you two newspaper articles about this. The first one was published in the British Daily Telegraph on March 22, 1916, page 7, that is, in the middle of World War One. It reads:

"According to reliable information, the victims of the Austrians and Bulgarians exceeded 700,000. [...] Women, children, and old men were shut up in the churches by the Austrians, and either stabbed with bayonet or suffocated by means of asphyxiating gas."

It is today generally acknowledged that this was a propaganda lie created by the British. Now juxtapose this with an article that appeared in the very same London Daily Telegraph on June 25, 1942, p. 5, that is, five days before the Jewish owned and controlled New York Times reported about the alleged mass murder of Jews in German controlled Europe for the first time:

"GERMANS MURDER 700,000 JEWS IN POLAND.

TRAVELLING GAS CHAMBERS. [...]

More than 700,000 Polish Jews have been slaughtered by the Germans in the greatest massacre in world history. [...]"

Now, if you think that it is obviously that nobody would make such outrageous claims about what is going on in any country today, I have to teach you another quite astounding lesson: Let me bring up only two examples from a war that took place in 1991, almost 50 years after the second holocaust propaganda started. It is about America's first war against Iraq to drive Iraqi troops out of Kuwait. The New York based Jewish Press, then calling itself "The largest independent Anglo-Jewish weekly newspaper," wrote on its title page on February 21, 1991:

"IRAQIS HAVE GAS CHAMBERS FOR ALL JEWS"

Or take the front cover announcement of volume 12, number 1 (spring 1991), of Response, a periodical published by the Jewish Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles and distributed in 381,065 copies:

"GERMANS PRODUCE ZYKLON B IN IRAQ

(Iraq's German-made gas chamber)"

I hope that you get the idea: 1900, 1916, 1927, 1942, 1991...

In 1991, it was all invented, for certain, as were the later claims prior to America's second war against Iraq in 2003 that Iraq possessed or was about to possess weapons of mass destruction - the weapon of mass destruction called "Zyklon B" not being mentioned here, though. But as Israel's renowned newspaper Ha'aretz proudly proclaimed on April 7, 2003:[1]

"The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservative intellectuals, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history."

And just recently, on May 21, 2004, Senator Fritz Hollings has proudly proclaimed that of course this war was fought for Israel and for nothing else.[2] Because, as we all know, the Jews in Israel deserve preventive protection from annihilation by weapons of mass destruction - Zyklon B or not, invented or not...

Notes

[1]Ari Shavit, "White man's burden," Ha'aretz, April 7, 2003; www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=280279.

[2]http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/statements/2004521A35.html

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/GR/Duke2004.html


http://nizkor.org/features/qar/

Nizkor has refused to post Ernst Zündel's rebuttal. In fact, they ran from it. You should read it - http://www.zundelsite.org/english/debate/debatetoc.html

http://www.overthrow.com/images/RedCross-holocaust.jpg

This is yet more evidene that the Holocaust was nothing more then mere propaganda.

According to the Merck Index, dozens of conversion tables and as many online sources that I could find I have come to the conclusion that Zyklon B (Hydrogen Cyanide or HCN) was sold in tins that containd 1.134kg of HCN. According to the Merck Index, above 25 degrees celsius HCN readily forms the gas. According to the Merck and other sources, the lethal concentration of Zyklon B or HCN needed to kill within minutes is 300 parts per million (ppm) which is in fact 300mg per liter of air and because of its vapor pressure, it can easily attain this.The shipments of Zyklon B to Auschwitz/Birkenau were 7.5 tons (1942), 12 tons (1943) and 6 tons (1944) for a total of 25.5 tons of Zyklon B (HCN).I found a few sources but it seems the Dachau gas chamber was 24'x18'x6' and others were about the same being 20'x20'x6'. Using the smaller (which is not in a revisionist's favor), you get 2400 cubic feet which translates to 67968 liters of air in each gas chamber. In a 20'x20' room, an extremely generous estimate of 400 people, that is 1 person per square foot would be the max that could fit. The volume of 400 people that are about 70kg average would be about 50L per person, thus 50L x 400 = 20 000L, so now the total room air volume is 67968-20000 = 47968 Liters. In order to obtain the 300ppm to kill people, for the 47968L number would be 14.39kg of Zyklon B. 14390000mg/47968L = 300ppm. So now we have 14.39kg per gassing. If 1 ton = 907.185kg, then there are 50.4 gassing per ton of Zyklon B, for a total for 25.5 tons of 1285.2 gassings. Thus using the very generous number of people I have given of 400 people per gassing x 1285.2 gassings = 514080 people gassed. NOT 1 MILLION and definately not 4 million. If we were to be realistic, the 400 people would be brought down to 180-200 per gassing giving only 231336-257040 people.Which again shows their numbers don't add up and the whole thing is fabricated and a lie.

From nizkor, the "authority" on the "holocaust."

"The scientifically planned crematoria should have been able to handle the total project, but they could not. The whole complex had forty-six retorts, each with the capacity for three to five persons. The burning in a retort lasted about half an hour. It took an hour a day to clean them out. Thus it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours or 4,380,000 a year.

As early as June 13, 1943, all was not well with the new installation. ... Eventually the ovens seemed to fall apart. Crematorium Four failed completely after a short time and Crematoria Five had to be shut down repeatedly. (TWC, V:624)"

"But the well-constructed crematoria fell far behind at a number of camps, and especially at Auschwitz in 1944. In August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, but still a bottleneck occurred."

http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/auschwit...itz-faq-07.html

Nizkor is filled withcontradictions. For example, it was theoretically possible to cremate about 12,000 corpses in twenty four hours. However, in August the total cremation reached a peak one day of 24,000, they doubled the theoretical maximum. Imagine the efficiency. In a modern crematorium, it takes...

"The time required for cremation to be completed may vary depending upon the weight and the size of the person. Generally cremation takes 2 to 3 hours, with a cooling period of an additional 1 to 2 hours. The cremated remains will weigh approximately 4 to 8 pounds."

http://www.preplannet.com/whatis.htm

That makes for a minimum of 48,000 pounds (24 tons) of remains at the "theoretical maximum." Where are all those remains?

Stories from "survivors."

That most famous "survivor," Elie Wiesel ...

ELIE WIESEL won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986. He is generally accepted as a witness to the Jewish "Holocaust," and, more specifically, as a witness to the legendary Nazi extermination gas chambers. The Paris daily Le Monde emphasized at the time that Wiesel was awarded the Nobel Prize because: (note 1)

These last years have seen, in the name of so-called "historical revisionism," the elaboration of theses, especially in France, questioning the existence of the Nazi gas chambers and, perhaps beyond that, of the genocide of the Jews itself.

But in what respect is Elie Wiesel a witness to the alleged gas chambers? By what right does he ask us to believe in that means of extermination? In an autobiographical book that supposedly describes his experiences at Auschwitz and Buchenwald, he nowhere mentions the gas chambers. (note 2) He does indeed say that the Germans executed Jews, but ... by fire; by throwing them alive into flaming ditches, before the very eyes of the deportees! No less than that!

Here Wiesel the false witness had some bad luck. Forced to choose from among several Allied war propaganda lies, he chose to defend the fire lie instead of the boiling water, gassing, or electrocution lies. In 1956, when he published his testimony in Yiddish, the fire lie was still alive in certain circles. This lie is the origin of the term Holocaust. Today there is no longer a single historian who believes that Jews were burned alive. The myths of the boiling water and of electrocution have also disappeared. Only the gas remains.

The gassing lie was spread by the Americans. (note 3) The lie that Jews were killed by boiling water or steam (specifically at Treblinka) was spread by the Poles. (note 4) The electrocution lie was spread by the Soviets.n (note 5)

The fire lie is of undetermined origin. It is in a sense as old as war propaganda or hate propaganda. In his memoir, Night, which is a version of his earlier Yiddish testimony, Wiesel reports that at Auschwitz there was one flaming ditch for the adults and another one for babies. He writes: (note 6)

Not far from us, flames were leaping from a ditch, gigantic flames. They were burning something. A lorry drew up at the pit and delivered its load -- little children. Babies! Yes, I saw it -- saw it with my own eyes ... Those children in the flames. (Is it surprising that I could not sleep after that? Sleep has fled from my eyes.)

A little farther on there was another ditch with gigantic flames where the victims suffered "slow agony in the flames." Wiesel's column was led by the Germans to within "three steps" of the ditch, then to "two steps." "Two steps from the pit we were ordered to turn to the left and made to go into a barracks."

An exceptional witness himself, Wiesel assures us of his having met other exceptional witnesses. Regarding Babi Yar, a place in Ukraine where the Germans executed Soviet citizens, among them Jews, Wiesel wrote: (note 7)

Later, I learn from a witness that, for month after month, the ground never stopped trembling; and that, from time to time, geysers of blood spurted from it.

These words did not slip from their author in a moment of frenzy: first, he wrote them, then some unspecified number of times (but at least once) he had to reread them in the proofs; finally, his words were translated into various languages, as is everything this author writes.

That Wiesel personally survived, was, of course, the result of a miracle. He says that: (note 8)

In Buchenwald they sent 10,000 persons to their deaths each day. I was always in the last hundred near the gate. They stopped. Why?

Read the rest and the references here.

How about a less prominent "survivor?" Jewish group casts doubts on accounts by popular Holocaust survivor


06-22-00 EDT


BALTIMORE (AP) -- A Jewish group has removed a popular Holocaust survivor
from its list of recommended speakers after experts said they found
inaccuracies in her wartime accounts.


"This is an attempt at getting to the truth, at making sure we give no
ammunition to the deniers of the Holocaust, and making sure that children
are given the historical truth," said Arthur Abramson, executive director of
the Baltimore Jewish Council, the community relations and political arm of
The Associated Jewish Community Federation of Baltimore.


An expert review cast doubt on the harrowing descriptions of concentration
camp life by Deli Strummer, 78, who has become known throughout Maryland for her spellbinding tales. Strummer acknowledged making "innocent errors" and getting dates wrong during an interview with The (Baltimore) Sun, but remained adamant about the truthfulness of her accounts. Strummer has said she spent nine months in Auschwitz, but records suggest that if she was there, it was for no longer than eight days. Strummer has since said she was probably in Auschwitz for about three weeks. She also said Nazi guards at Auschwitz lined up children and shot them for target practice in front of their mothers, something Holocaust testimony expert Lawrence Langer says was "highly unlikely." Historian Raul Hilberg said Strummer's claim of seeing bones in a gas chamber is "invented," since research shows it would have been impossible for her to see bones in a shower or even a gas chamber.
Langer said Strummer's dramatic account of her liberation from a gas chamber
at Mauthausen on May 5, 1945, also is inaccurate. Records show that the last
gassing there took place April 28. Strummer said she's "disgusted" at the scrutiny she's fallen under.

"I didn't think about timing," she said. "All I wanted was to tell the
world, 'Please don't let this happen again."'

For more than 12 years, the Baltimore Jewish Council has supported
Strummer's speaking activities. She was featured in two documentaries and on
video presentations for two Holocaust libraries.

Original plaque at Auschwitz

http://www.fpp.co.uk/ActionReport/AR...hwFourMill.JPG

The revised plaque at Auschwitz today:

http://www.thecommonroom.org/images/...itz/plaque.jpg

At this point, the reader probably wants to know why an analysis that concludes that "gas chambers" did not exist in certain camps is suddenly discontinued as soon as, for example, Auschwitz is discussed. Why, on one hand, is the critical spirit awakened, and then, on the other hand, is it allowed to collapse into lethargy? After all, as far as the "gas chamber" of Ravensbrück is concerned, we have many points of "evidence" and "undeniable eyewitness accounts," beginning with repeated and extensive eyewitness accounts by Marie-Claude Vaillant-Couturier or Germaine Tillion.

It gets even better. Several years after the war, before both British and French tribunals, the camp officials of Ravensbrück (Suhren, Schwarzhuber and Treite) repeatedly confessed to the existence of a "gas chamber" in their camp. They even vaguely described its operation. Eventually, those who did not commit suicide were executed because of this alleged "gas chamber." The same "confessions" were given prior to their deaths by Ziereis for Mauthausen (Austria) and by Kramer for Struthof-Natzweiler (Alsace).

Today, one can see the alleged "gas chamber" of Struthof-Natzweiler and in the same place one can also read the unbelievable "confession" of Kramer. This "gas chamber," which is designated as an "historical monument," is a complete fraud. The slightest amount of critical spirit will be sufficient to convince oneself that a gassing in this small room, without any sealing whatsoever, would have been a catastrophe for the executioner as well as for the people in the vicinity. In order to make this "gas chamber" (which is guaranteed to be "in its original condition") believable, someone has gone so for as to clumsily knock a hole into the thin wall with a chisel, and thereby break four tiles. The hole was so arranged that Josef Kramer would have dumped through it the mysterious "salts" (about which he could give no further details and which, when mixed with a little water, killed within one minute!). How could salts and water make such a gas? How could Kramer have prevented the gas from coming back out the hole? How could he see his victims from a hole which would have let him see no more than half the room? How did he ventilate the room before opening the rudimentary door, made from rough-cut lumber? Perhaps one must ask the civil engineering firm in Saint-Michel sur-Meurthe (Vosges), which after the war altered the place which today is presented to visitors "in its original condition"?

Even long after the war, prelates, university professors, and some ordinary citizens gave eyewitness descriptions regarding the terrible reality of the "gas chambers" of Buchenwald and Dachau. With regard to Buchenwald, the "gas chamber" gradually disappeared from the minds of the people who had previously maintained that there was one in this camp.

Dachau
With regard to Dachau, the situation is different. After it had been firmly established for example by His Eminence Bishop Piguet, the bishop of Clermont-Ferrand that the "gas chamber" had been especially useful in gassing Polish priests,3 eventually the following official explanation came to pass:

This gas chamber, whose construction had been started in 1942, was still not completed in 1945 when the camp was liberated. No one could have been gassed in it.

The little room, which visitors are told is a "gas chamber," is in reality completely harmless and, while all sorts of construction plans are available for "Baracke X" (the crematorium and vicinity), one cannot determine upon what basis or technical explanation one can claim that this structure is an "unfinished gas chamber."

Broszat
No official historical institute has done more than the Institut für Zeitgeschichte in Munich to make the myth of the "gas chambers" believable. Since 1972 its director has been Dr. Martin Broszat. As a member of this Institute since 1955, Dr. Broszat became famous as a result of his (partial!) publication in 1958 of the confessions that Rudolf Höss (former Commandant of Auschwitz) is supposed to have written in a communist prison before he was hanged. However, on 19 August 1960, this historian had to tell his amazed countrymen that there had never been mass gassings in the entire Old Reich (Germany's 1937 frontiers), but rather, only in a small number of selected places, especially in occupied Poland, including Auschwitz and Birkenau but not Majdanek. This startling news was given in a simple letter to the editor which was published in the weekly magazine Die Zeit (19 August 1960, page 16). The title was quite misleading and restrictive: Keine Vergasung in Dachau (No Gassing at Dachau) instead of Keine Massenvergasung im Altreich (No Mass Gassing in the Old Reich).4 In order to support this contention, Dr. Broszat provided not the slightest piece of evidence. Today [1978], eighteen years after his letter, neither he nor any of his colleagues has provided the slightest explanation for this affirmation. It would be highly interesting to learn:

How does Dr. Broszat know that "gas chambers" in the Old Reich were frauds?
How does he know that the "gas chambers" in Poland are genuine?
Why do the "proofs," the "certainties," and the "eyewitness accounts" concerning the concentration camps in the west suddenly have no value, while the "proofs," "certainties," and "eyewitness accounts" concerning the camps in Poland Communist territory still remain true?
As if by some tacit agreement, not a single recognized historian has raised these questions. How often in the "history of history" has one relied upon the claims of a single historian? 5

German Camps in Occupied Poland
Let us now examine the "gas chambers" in Poland.

For proof that the "gas chambers" in Belzec or Treblinka really existed, one is asked to rely essentially upon the statement of Kurt Gerstein. This document from a member of the SS, who allegedly committed suicide in 1945 in the prison of Cherche-Midi in Paris, abounds with so many absurdities that in the eyes of historians it has for a long time already been thoroughly discredited.6 Furthermore, this statement has never been made public, not even in the documents of the Nuremberg tribunal, except in an unusable form (with truncations, falsifications, and rewritings). The actual document has never been available with its absurd appendices (French "draft" or the "supplements" in German).

Regarding Majdanek, a visit to the actual site is absolutely necessary. It is even more convincing than a visit to Struthof-Natzweiler, if that is possible. Over this question I will publish additional information.

With regard to Auschwitz and Birkenau, one must rely essentially on the "Memoirs" 7 of Rudolf Höss, which were prepared under the supervision of his Polish captors. At the actual site, one can only find a "reconstructed" room (Auschwitz I) and ruins (Auschwitz II or Birkenau).

An execution with gas has nothing to do with a suicidal or accidental suffocation. In the case of an execution, the executioner and his team must not be exposed to the slightest danger. For their executions, the Americans employ hydrocyanic acid in a sophisticated way, and that only in a small, hermetically-sealed chamber. Afterwards, the gas is exhausted from the chamber and neutralized.

For this reason, one must ask how, for example in the case of Auschwitz II or Birkenau, one could bring 2,000 people into a room measuring 210 square meters in area, and then in this highly crowded situation throw in the very strong pesticide Zyklon B, and then immediately after the deaths of the victims let a work crew without any gas masks enter the room in order to take out the bodies which had been thoroughly saturated with cyanide.

Two documents8 from the German industrial archives which were registered by the Americans at Nuremberg tell us that the Zyklon B had a strong tendency to adhere to surfaces and could not be removed from an ordinary room with a strong ventilator, but only by natural aeration for almost 24 hours. Additional documents may be found only at the site in the Auschwitz Museum archives, which were never described elsewhere, but which show that this room of 210 square meters, which is today in a dilapidated condition, was only a very simple mortuary, which (in order to protect it against heat) had been located underground, and which was provided with only a single door which served as both an entrance and an exit. 9

Concerning the crematoria of Auschwitz, there is just as there is generally for the entire camp an overabundance of documents and invoices down to the last penny. However, concerning the "gas chambers" there is nothing: no contract for construction, not even a study, nor an order for materials, nor a plan, nor an invoice, nor even a photograph. In a hundred war crimes trials, nothing of the sort was ever produced.
http://ihr.org/leaflets/gaschambers.shtml

Conclusion:

It is my conclusion, after having viewed the evidence above that the Holocaust was largely nothing more than propaganda.

Approved 09/11/04 @ 11:13am. Astrid now has until 9/13/04 @ 11:13am to respond.

Those comments weren’t meant for you. They were referring to the sources you provided in your original post in the political forum and most other revisionist material that I have seen. You call my comments about revisionism an ad hominem attack. I disagree. Ad hominem usually refers to irrelevant personal attacks on someone to weaken their argument. If I were to say that Joe’s comments about Astronomy can’t be relied on because his father was an ex-convict then that would obviously be Ad hominem. However, if I say that Joe’s opinions and evidence about the holocaust or other Jewish matters are suspect because he is an Anti-Semite then that is a matter of credibility. A major issue in credibility is bias. Every book or web site you are likely to read about establishing credibility of a source mentions bias as an important factor.

You admonish me for calling you an anti-Semite and then immediately you go on to explain that the Holocaust is all propaganda created by an evil Jewish society called the Zionists. Then I scrolled down and found a link to the site where most of every thing you said was copied. Then I follow the link and find that the site is about a speech given at a David Duke convention- a raging white supremacist. You deserve the benefit of doubt, but a good portion of the people who read those web sites are Neo Nazis or Anti-Semites. I am not going to make presumptions about you, but I am going to give your “evidence” a good beating.

This is the worst conspiracy that I have ever seen. It tries to string together a bunch of random news clippings from 1900 to 1992 to create a Zionist Holocaust conspiracy. Lets look at each one of the pictures individually.

Picture one:
This is a picture from the book cover of an early revisionist book and doesn’t really need comment.

Picture 2:
This article was published in 1916 during the First World War. MARTIN H. GLYNN, who was the Former Governor of the State of N.Y, wrote it. There are some strange parallels from this article to the Holocaust. For instance it mentions 6 million Jews, the word holocaust, and something about a bigoted lust for Jewish blood. The article never talks about the extermination, gassings, experimentation, or concentration camps. The article also doesn’t talk about 6million Jews actually dying; it only mentions that 6 million Jews could starve to death if we don’t help them. So what does this article mean? My opponent and the author of the book would like you to believe that this means that a powerful Jewish conspiracy thought that a myth about a Holocaust would be a great idea to increase Jewish power and that they failed to do this in the first war but they succeeded in the second war.

6 million people—why did Glynn use this number. The reason is that this about the number of Jews in that part of Europe during both wars. If some Jewish conspiracy actually did invent the Holocaust myth then why were they so set on the number 6 million? Did they think that 6 million was a nice round number so lets perpetuate the 6 million people Holocaust myth again? So they somehow had the power to make the Governor use this 6 million people number in 1916 and they also had the power to convince all the historians to use 6 million people again many years later? That’s quite a lot of effort to make sure that the number 6 million is used. What about the word holocaust? The word holocaust just means genocide and it is only referring to the possibility of starvation for a large amount of Jews. It didn’t have the current Nazi death camp connotation at that time. What about the bigoted lust for Jewish blood. This is only referring to anti-Semitism. With a huge number of articles to choose from you are bound to find some with similarities to Holocaust. This is the same reason that Nostradomas appears to be accurate sometimes.

Picture 3:

Why was this article even used? It has nothing to do with the Jewish people. It talks about Serbians being killed by the Austrians. I suppose it was used because it talked about gassings. But mass murder by gas is not restricted to the Holocaust. So this article was planned by the Jewish conspiracy to lend weight to the future Holocaust? Or is this just suppose to show us that the media can get it wrong about mass murder? I think that if I was writing a book about a Jewish conspiracy to create the Holocaust before WW2 I could have found a better article than this from 1900 to 1942.

Picture 4:
This article is from 1942, after the Holocaust had already begun. So because the number from this article is the same from the article from picture 3 its suppose to mean that both of them have been contrived by a Jewish conspiracy or that all evidence of mass murders is made up by the media? This is a stretch even for a conspiracy theory.

Picture 5:

This article is from 1991. It doesn’t claim that any sort of Holocaust is happening now. Gas chambers have become a popular cultural symbol and have been used in numerous articles, movies, books, etc. Does this somehow mean that the Holocaust never happened? If somebody wrote an article about a potential third world war would that mean that World War 2 never happened?

Picture 6:
The same thing can be said for this article. It looks like an Enquirer article. I saw a more interesting one last night about an alien baby that could make milk flow from statues. If every time an article appeared about something similar to the past it meant that the original event never occurred then we should pretty much throw out the history books.

Honestly, I feel silly even responding to this part of the post. So the Jewish Conspiracy involved planning for the Holocaust myth so that everyone would feel sorry for them and Stephen Speilburg could make money from Schindlers List? Never mind those millions of Jews would have all of their possessions taken and be put in forced labor camps. Whether you think that Jews were purposely killed in gas chambers or only really abused in the harsh environments of the work camps and ghettos they had it pretty bad. Don’t you think that if the Jews had prior knowledge of the Holocaust that they would have tried to avoid it instead of trying to capitalize on it? Are you really suggesting that the Jews planned the Holocaust? Where does this all-powerful Jewish conspiracy that can control all of history come from. What are their names?

Now, on to the Red Cross document. This is a real document that we can have a meaningful debate over. Are you at all surprised that the Nazis didn’t report the true number of Jews killed during the Holocaust to the Red Cross? Reporting lies about the death toll during a war is nothing new; many countries have done it. The Nazis went to great length to hide their murders from the world. First of all, those numbers only refer to people given numbers in the concentration camps. The Nazis only assigned the numbers that you see on survivor’s arms to the people they kept as forced labor. The millions of people immediately shot or sent to the gas chamber didn’t receive a number and were not counted in the tally. All of the people that were shot in the ghettos weren’t counted either.

This kind of propaganda was common for the Nazis. The Nazis even went so far as to create a special Jewish camp to make propaganda films and reports from. The Jewish prisoners called it the family camp. In this camp they didn’t separate the woman and children from the men. They were allowed to live in family units and they only worked on their own camp. They were also given more food and lived in much better conditions. This camp was used by the Nazis to show the world what they had done with all the Jews—an answer to all of the rumors. They made films from the family camp and sent them out to the world—just another example of Nazi propaganda.

You have made a critical error in your calculation. I have indicated the error in bold. You have used a calculation for parts per million that only applies to water. The reason this calculation works for water is because one millimeter of water weighs one gram. It doesn’t work for any other milligram/litter parts per million calculations because the solute doesn’t weigh 1 gram per millimeter, including air. The parts per million to mg/m cubed is represented by this equation:
C (mg/m3) = C (PPM) x MW / 24.45. So if I have 300 PPM I multiply x the molecular weight of HCN which is 27.081 then divide by 24.45. This gives me 332.28 mg/ m cubed. Given that there are 1000 liters per m cubed there would be .3322 mg/liter of HCN to give an exposure of 300 PPM. Assuming that you have not made any more errors and taking your value of 47,968 Litters for the amount of space to be filled it would require 15,939 milligrams for 300 parts per million. This is only 15.93 grams and .0159 kgs. Again, using your value of 200 people per gassing and 25.5 tons of zyklon b that would be enough gas to kill 326 million people.

But that’s not realistic. If I really poured in 15.93 grams of Zyclon B and it slowly evaporated it would escape the gas chamber before it reached lethal levels. Even if the gas chamber were somehow perfectly sealed it would take a long time for that small amount of Zyclon-B to reach lethal levels. I imagine the Nazis used at least one can of Zyclon-B because its not the kind of thing you want to reuse and because the less you put in the longer it takes for it to work. This whole method that you used to determine how much Zyclon-B was needed to kill the people at Auschwitz was flawed to begin with. To accurately determine how much Zyclon-B was required to kill 1 million people I would need to factor in the average temperature of the different seasons of Auschwitz plus the rate at which the gas escaped, the boiling temperature of Zyclon-B, and the vapor pressure, and the amount of HCN in the pellets, etc. This would require more time and research that I can commit. Besides, not all the Jews killed in the Holocaust were killed by gas. I really don’t need to calculate whether there was enough Zyclon-B shipped to Auschwitz because I already know there was enough because there is evidence of it:

Two German firms, Tesch/Stabenow and Degesch, produced Zyklon B gas after they acquired the patent from Farben. Tesch supplied two tons a month, and Degesch three quarters of a ton. The firms that produced the gas already had extensive experience in fumigation. "In short, this industry used very powerful gases to exterminate rodents and insects in enclosed spaces; that it should now have become involved in an operation to kill off Jews by the hundreds of thousands is not mere accident."
- (Auschwitz, page 7) (Hilberg, Commandant, 567)

Hoss also mentions at the trial that it took 5-7 kg of zyklon b to kill 1500 people and that the companies sold him enough to kill millions of people. (1)


The theoretical cremation was referring to the theoretical yield based on early calculations. The actual yield was determined through actual trial and error with improved techniques applied. The two quotations that you mention refer to the theoretical yield and the actual yield, which are two different things. The actual yield is not always lower than the theoretical yield. If you had read any of the stories from the prisoners that operated the crematories you would realize that the capacity of the crematories was increased by shorter cremation times and the incomplete incineration of bones. (1)

You are confusing a crematorium at a funeral parlor with the powerful industrial crematoriums of the concentration camps. They are two different things with two different designs. Crematories, like any other industrial or commercial operation, build their equipment to meet certain capacity requirements. I wouldn’t claim that because my household refrigerator couldn't contain 15 gallons of ranch dressing that a large restaurant's refrigerator couldn’t either. Nor would I claim that that Coors brewery couldn’t make more than 5-gallon batch of beer every 2 weeks because my home brewery couldn't.

The ashes of the victims were carried away in trucks and either buried or dumped in rivers, as reported by survivors that worked at the crematoriums. I don’t know the whereabouts of all the millions of people throughout the world that have been cremated in funeral parlors over the years but that doesn’t prove they are still alive.

Oh but you have forgotton the testimonies of the other thousands of survivors, Nazis, German civilians, and veterans about the Holocaust. Are they in on the conpiracy as well? Most historians do believe that some people were burned alive; your statement was incorrect. There is also plenty of evidence that Nazi “doctors” performed all kinds of experiments on prisoners. Some of these include electricution experiments, high altitude experiments, temperature experiments, and starvation experiments.

Your talking about a famous Holocaust historian that emphatically believes in the Holocaust and all its atrocities. He has actually reviewed all of the evidence and concluded that the Holocaust occurred (to the extent that I am arguing), like the majority of the other historians. Did you actually read any of his books or did you just get that from a revisionist website. Oh wait its just a cut and paste from this site.


The Russians gave an early estimate that the death toll of Auschwitz was four million. After a thorough examination of the evidence historians have revised this number to 1 million. If every historical event or scientific theory was thrown out because of a revision then we would be left with nothing.

This whole section is just another cut and paste job. I will respond to some of it but you can’t just cut and paste other peoples’ arguments; you have to come up with your own. I have a dozen Holocaust books in front of me, including copies of original Nazi documents, and you are just copying from revisionist web sites.

This can’t be a real argument. Are they claiming that a recreation of a gas chamber is a fraud? Isn’t that pretty much the definition of a recreation? So because they didn’t seal the recreation or add holes to the ceiling of the recreation to pour in gas then all of the other gas chambers are a hoax? Couldn’t you concieve of a few reasons why it might not be a good idea to make a real working gas chamber for a recreation.

HCN is a well-known compound and there isn’t anything mysterious about it. Zyklon-B was in granular form and solids usually don’t fall upward. I imagine he closed the lid to the chamber after he poured it in. Wood can be made to create an air-tight seal; think of a boat.

Many estimates about the death tolls were calculated from the Russians and other Western countries. I fail to see how one estimate that has the number 6 million means anything at all. Were they even referring specifically to the Jews or was that a calculation of all the people killed during the holocaust up to that time? Just a minute ago you were claiming that because the Russians estimated the wrong number then that meant the Holocaust was a fraud.

Why would the Jewish conspiracy be so set on the number 6 million? Why would the Russian propagandist like 6 million so much? I could just as well claim that since the Russian that came up with that number was so accurate he must have been a prophet with incredible powers of foresight. But both of our theories would be useless without a solid foundation of evidence such as the evidence presented for the millions of deaths during the holocaust and the existence of the gas chambers.

First of all, the fact that the Nazis burned a lot of records from the death camps is well supported. Numerous survivors and Nazis have testified to this. Furthermore the Nazis cherry picked certain buildings to blow up in the camps. Why would they blow up the gas chambers if they were just ordinary buildings? Anyways, that paragraph is not true. The Nazis knew that the world would not look kindly on their Holocaust plans so they used euphemisms to describe gas chamber related events and kept it secret. This also is supported by evidence. Also, the Nazis did try to eliminate all of the gas chamber evidence to avoid war crimes trials but they did not succeed in getting rid of all of it. Btw their efforts to eliminate the gas chamber evidence is well supported by the testimonies of Nazis after the war. Here are some examples of the evidence that that did not succeed in eliminating:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/.../k2-morgue.jpg
"Section of the morgue of crematorium II. Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum, box BW (B) 30/2, file 30/19a. The conversion of this morgue into a gas chamber was facilitated by the double ventillation system located where the wall touches the ceiling and in the wall itself." (Dwork & Van Pelt, pg. 325)
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/...onstuction.jpg
"The crematorium, originally designed for the main camp but ultimately erected in Auschwitz-Birkenau as crematorium II. Drawing by Kate Mullin. The incineration hall with the five triple-muffle furnaces occupies the center of the building (1). To the right are the fuel storeroom (2) and the rooms for the inmates working the installation (3); to the left are the two dissection rooms (4 and 5) and the two-door elevator (6) opening onto both the incineration hall and the first dissection room. The elevator descends into a vestibule that is connected to the outside by two staircases and a chute for corpses (7). The two large morgues (8 and 9) extend far beyond the footprint of the building. One of the morgues is equipped with a double ventillation system (10) to draw in fresh air and extract foul odors. This piping made it possible to transform the morgue into a gas chamber with little effort. N.B.: This is an axonometric drawing; the three-dimensional effect is derived from the exact measurements and angles of the original plan. See plate 16."(Dwork & Van Pelt, pg.270)

http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...624-inventory/

"At the top left, we see the building being inventoried, "Krematorium III," also known as "KGL 30a." Below that, the first room listed ("Raum 1") has been written in as "Leichenkeller 1," which literally means "morgue 1." This is the homicidal gassing chamber.

At the far right, we see that there are the categories of "Brausen" (showers, showerheads) and the written-in inventory item "Gasdichtetur" (gas-tight door). We see that Leichenkeller 1 has 14 showerheads and a gas-tight door."

I'm having trouble getting this one to post for some reason. But it can be viewed here.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/aus...624-inventory/

And here is an excerpt from a document about the gas chambers.
Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
Press, 1984, p. 70]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
first be constructed. Brack's view is that, since construction of the
apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
your higher SS and Police leader. Please request from him the
dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
[Germany proper] might also be sent. Jews are currently being
evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
without qualms through use of the Brack device. Incidents such as
those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
to any further measures you take.

I think that one says it all.
http://www.shamash.org/holocaust/denial/nazi_doc.txt
(1) Encyclopedia of the Holocaust

I ask that you don't paste anymore arguments directly from revisionist websites. Most of your post was just pasted in. It's not fair for me to have to answer very long-winded arguments from different revisionist-no one is paying me for this and I don't have the time. Please write out your own argument and lets try to keep our posts more brief.

I answered your question so here are a few for you:
1) How many Jews do you think were killed in the Holocaust?
2) Why did the Nazis build 5 massive crematoriums with adjourning buildings that look like gas chambers?
3) Where did all the Jewish people go if they were not killed in the Holocaust?
4) How do you account for so many testimonies from survivors?
5) How do you account for all of the documents found about the Holocaust?
6) Why did so many Nazis and German people testify to the Holocaust and the gas chambers and why does it match the other evidence so well
7) Why did the Nazis blow up the gas chambers if they were just regular buildings?
8) Why did they need so much HCN?
9) How do you account for all of the pictures?
10) Could you explain more about the Zionist conspiracy?

Approved on 09/13/04 @ 12:02PM.


I believe that many Jews died in the hands of the nazis (and if not, commies would have done it anyway and more thoroughly). But the number of 6 million must be over exaggerated. Even in the Westen Europe the numbers of killed Jews are only an estimation and it varies according to source and many time the number of killed Jews in Poland and Soviet Union has put together and I simply don't trust the Soviet numbers at all - just like I question any other information from Soviet Union. And when there's one lie, there must other lies too. I'd say the possible accurate numer of Jews killed during WW2 is 6 million minus the 3 million from Auschwitz. That makes 3 million. In comparison, 3 million Polish civilians died during WW2. Millions of Germans died in bombings by allies and after the Red Army entered into the German soil. I'd say those are much more real Holocaust than this Holohoax filled by lies. Even Dresden alone could be called as holocaust, even the asphalt boiled there and even today no one knows how many people really died there in 13-14 Februari 1945, because bodies simply vaporized because of the heat. As to the anti-semitic bigots you mention, I'm not sure what you mean. Holocaust Revisionism is not necessarily an anti-semitic issue. There are anti-semitic people who have examined the issue, but not every one of them is a Holocaust Revisionist, nor is every Holocaust Revisionist an anti-semitic bigot. It's just that Holocaust Revisionism seems to be far more welcome in what few anti-semticoutlets there are, as opposed to more "mainstream" outlets. They won't ever allow the other side to present their view, at least not on this issue. In some countries, Holocaust Revisionism is actually illegal. So, as I see it, the Revisionists haven't been given a fair hearing. Speaking for myself, I'm more of a "Holocaust" agnostic than a Revisionist. I won't say that it didn't happen, but I won't say it did happen either. I wasn't there, so I don't really know what happened. I do have some doubts about the ways in which the "Holocaust" is presented, particularly when it's marketed for mass consumption. I'm also suspicious about the knee-jerk reactions against Revisionists, even to the point of passing laws against it and taking other drastic measures. I think that the measures taken against Ernst Zundel, for one, are an absolute disgrace, and any government which would lock someone up for having an alternative view of history should be ashamed of itself. That, just by itself, gives every validation to Holocaust Revisionism. If there are those who believe the "Holocaust" really happened, then what are they trying to hide? What are they afraid of when they oppress and punish Revisionists? It tells me that the Revisionists have struck a chord with certain Powers That Be. It tells me that maybe they're uncovering something that some people would rather remain hidden. Otherwise, they wouldn't pay it any mind at all. It could go down just like so many UFO stories or Elvis sightings, if that's how society views it anyway. Nobody gets locked up for that, do they?

You're really reaching, but just so you know: the "gas chambers" weren't "discovered" until the end of the war...three years later.

I will admit, that, at last I have done enough research and figured it out. Though I don't like your calculation and when doing a ppm calculation, there is no need of Molecular Weight, the LC50 of MSDSs are in ppm but the Occupational Health and Safety pages state that ppm is micrograms per liter which is the same as you g/m cubed (1 ), and since all my calculations are done with mg/L, that would make my calculation 1000x too much, thus the total could be around 200 million instead of 200 thousands. Whoops! Doesn't matter since the gas was used to sterilize clothes and improve the health of prisoners anyways.

But:

The Höss 'Confession'
A key Holocaust document is the "confession" of former Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss of April 5, 1946, which was submitted by the U.S. prosecution at the main Nuremberg trial. (note 6)Although it is still widely cited as solid proof for the Auschwitz extermination story, it is actually a false statement that was obtained by torture.Many years after the war, British military intelligence sergeant Bernard Clarke described how he and five other British soldiers tortured the former commandant to obtain his "confession." Höss himself privately explained his ordeal in these words: "Certainly, I signed a statement that I killed two and half million Jews. I could just as well have said that it was five million Jews. There are certain methods by which any confession can be obtained, whether it is true or not." (note 7)Even historians who generally accept the Holocaust extermination story now acknowledge that many of the specific statements made in the Höss "affidavit" are simply not true. For one thing, no serious scholar now claims that anything like two and a half or three million people perished in Auschwitz.The Höss "affidavit" further alleges that Jews were already being exterminated by gas in the summer of 1941 at three other camps: Belzec, Treblinka and Wolzek. The "Wolzek" camp mentioned by Höss is a total invention. No such camp existed, and the name is no longer mentioned in Holocaust literature. Moreover, the story these days by those who believe in the Holocaust legend is that gassings of Jews did not begin at Auschwitz, Treblinka, or Belzec until sometime in 1942.

Many Jewish Inmates Unable to Work
For example, it is often claimed that all Jews at Auschwitz who were unable to work were immediately killed. Jews who were too old, young, sick, or weak were supposedly gassed on arrival, and only those who could be worked to death were temporarily kept alive.But the evidence shows that, in fact, a very high percentage of the Jewish inmates were not able to work, and were nevertheless not killed. For example, an internal German telex message dated Sept. 4, 1943, from the chief of the Labor Allocation department of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office (WVHA), reported that of 25,000 Jewish inmates in Auschwitz, only 3,581 were able to work, and that all of the remaining Jewish inmates -- some 21,500, or about 86 percent -- were unable to work. (note 8)This is also confirmed in a secret report dated April 5, 1944, on "security measures in Auschwitz" by Oswald Pohl, head of the SS concentration camp system, to SS chief Heinrich Himmler. Pohl reported that there was a total of 67,000 inmates in the entire Auschwitz camp complex, of whom 18,000 were hospitalized or disabled. In the Auschwitz II camp (Birkenau), supposedly the main extermination center, there were 36,000 inmates, mostly female, of whom "approximately 15,000 are unable to work." (note 9)These two documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Auschwitz extermination story.The evidence shows that Auschwitz-Birkenau was established primarily as a camp for Jews who were not able to work, including the sick and elderly, as well as for those who were temporarily awaiting assignment to other camps. That's the considered view of Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, who also says that this was the reason for the unusually high death rate there. (note 10)Princeton University history professor Arno Mayer, who is Jewish, acknowledges in a recent book about the "final solution" that more Jews perished at Auschwitz as a result of typhus and other "natural" causes than were executed. (note 11)

Allied Propaganda
The Auschwitz gassing story is based in large part on the hearsay statements of former Jewish inmates who did not personally see any evidence of extermination. Their beliefs are understandable, because rumors about gassings at Auschwitz were widespread.Allied planes dropped large numbers of leaflets, written in Polish and German, on Auschwitz and the surrounding areas which claimed that people were being gassed in the camp. The Auschwitz gassing story, which was an important part of the Allied wartime propaganda effort, was also broadcast to Europe by Allied radio stations. (note 12)

Survivor Testimony
Former inmates have confirmed that they saw no evidence of extermination at Auschwitz.An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, testified about her camp experiences in a Toronto District Court in March 1988. She was interned in Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942 for having sexual relations with a Polish forced laborer. On the train trip to the camp, a Gypsy woman told her and the others that they would all be gassed at Auschwitz.Upon arrival, Maria and the other women were ordered to undress and go into a large concrete room without windows to take a shower. The terrified women were sure that they were about to die. But then, instead of gas, water came out of the shower heads.Auschwitz was no vacation center, Maria confirmed. She witnessed the death of many fellow inmates by disease, particularly typhus, and quite a few committed suicide. But she saw no evidence at all of mass killings, gassings, or of any extermination program. (note 13)A Jewish woman named Marika Frank arrived at Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary in July 1944, when 25,000 Jews were supposedly gassed and cremated daily. She likewise testified after the war that she heard and saw nothing of "gas chambers" during the time she was interned there. She heard the gassing stories only later. (note 14)

Himmler Orders Death Rate Reduced
In response to the deaths of many inmates due to disease, especially typhus, the German authorities responsible for the camps ordered firm counter-measures.The head of the SS camp administration office sent a directive dated Dec. 28, 1942, to Auschwitz and the other concentration camps. It sharply criticized the high death rate of inmates due to disease, and ordered that "camp physicians must use all means at their disposal to significantly reduce the death rate in the various camps." Furthermore, it ordered:The camp doctors must supervise more often than in the past the nutrition of the prisoners and, in cooperation with the administration, submit improvement recommendations to the camp commandants ... The camp doctors are to see to it that the working conditions at the various labor places are improved as much as possible.Finally, the directive stressed that "the Reichsfhrer SS [Heinrich Himmler] has ordered that the death rate absolutely must be reduced." (note 16)

There is much more here: http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml or from here http://home.att.net/~whitesox/israel/Auschwitz.htm which states:

and

and I will enjoy your reply, I know how the redcross is such an evil and lie ridden institution. Think about what they are claiming; really think it over: that the German people, at the very pinnacle of European civilization, suddenly went psycho, turned into a nation of homicidal maniacs, built a network of extermination camps, and for three years systematically murdered millions upon millions upon millions of people - 11 million, say the jews. Then, after the war, the Germans became normal again.We have all heard the horror stories, now let us examine these stories in the cold light of science. Let us begin with the tales of Treblinka, claimed to be the biggest "death camp" of them all, save Birkenau at Auschwitz. There are many claims as to the death toll at Treblinka - some say more than a million perished here. But let us work, for the moment, with the figures presented in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust: 870,000. Further there are many versions of the means of execution, which we may examine later; but the commonest story is that of a gas chamber, and that the gas used was the exhaust of a diesel engine. 870,000 were gassed, buried in mass graves, then later disinterred by means of steam shovel, and cremated on open pyres.A grisly, horrific, mind-boggling tale. Virtually a quarry of human remains was dug, filled, covered, then literally strip-mined out of the earth, and those remains then burned.

Treblinka Ground Radar Examination Finds No Trace of Mass Graves

A detailed forensic examination of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there. For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves. According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties. Krege's team used an $80,000 Ground Penetration Radar (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters. (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists, and police.) In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples. The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.

Because normal geological processes are very slow acting, disruption of the soil structure would have been detectable even after 60 years, Krege noted.
While his initial investigation suggests that there were never any mass graves at the Treblinka camp site, Krege believes that further work is still called for.

Krege is preparing a detailed report on his Treblinka investigation. He says that he would welcome the formation, possibly under United Nations auspices, of an international team of neutral, qualified specialists, to carry out similar investigations at the sites of all the wartime German camps. Krege and his team are associated with, and funded by, the Adelaide Institute, a south Australia revisionist "think tank." Its director, Dr. Fredrick Töben, was jailed in Germany for seven months in 1999 for disputing Holocaust extermination claims.No trace of the murder, the burial, the grisly mass exhumation by steam shovel, and the nightmarish cremations which followed. No trace.Next we posit the necessary tasks to fit the scenario at Treblinka as claimed by the jews. The jews claim that 870,000 bodies were disinterred and cremated during a period of 120 days. That’s 7250 per day, every day, start to finish. The volume of the average human body is conservatively 6 cubic feet. (I should probably do this in cubits.) That’s 43500 cubic feet in volume of human remains, mostly water, to be reduced to ash by burning, every day. What about fuel? The “witnesses” claim that railroad ties were used to build the pyres. Actually, they claim many things, but generally, it is railroad ties. Well, I could research the average fuel consumption by modern crematoria required to reduce a body to ash, probably using propane, under optimal conditions in a modern furnace, then calculate the volume of pine wood necessary to produce the equivalent heat energy, in ergs, but that was too gruesome even for me. I don’t really want to know - though I will do so if challenged on this point. But let’s just say it would require ten railroad ties to completely immolate a human body. I think it would actually take at least double that, but let’s be generously conservative, and say ten. That’s 72,500 railroad ties per day, every day, for 120 days, for a grand total of 8,700,000 railroad ties. I’m sure everyone can see where we are headed. Anyway, if the average railroad tie is 12” x 6” x 96”, the volume per tie is 4 cu ft. The total volume of wood fuel required per day would be 290,000 cu ft. Add that to the volume of remains for a total volume of 333,500. I was about to say this volume requires a structure 70 feet long, by 70 feet wide, by 70 feet high - 7 stories high - to be built every day. That’s with no spaces - no dead volume, you might say. But - oops! - I forgot aeration. Every fire requires oxygen to burn. Our Brobdignagian kosher funeral pyre requires ventilation. We can’t pack ‘em in there like sardines; they just would not burn. Need oxygen. But how much ventilation? Again, I didn’t research the size of the average crematorium manufactured today, but one can see from the pictures on the Nizkor site that the Auschwitz ovens are at least 5’ x 5’ x 10’. That would be the approximate volume of air needed then, to feed the flames for one cremation, that is 250 cu ft. What I mean is this is the space required around each body for the air to circulate. Multiply that by 7250 and goodness gracious: an additional volume of 1,812,500 cubic feet for our nasty campfire. Let’s cut that volume of air in half, just to be conservative. The result is 906,000 cu ft of air plus 290,000 cu ft of fuel plus 43,500 cu ft of you-know-who for a structural volume of 1,240,000 cu ft - 107’ long, 107’ wide, and 11 stories tall. Minimum. Every single day, rain or shine, war or no war, for 120 days running. This formidable structure was built and rebuilt, a new one every day, by a staff of fewer than 500 starved and beaten slave laborers, including the beautiful jewish princesses stocking the obligatory SS whorehouse, and the staff of the infamous infirmary in Camp 1 ( or 2, depending on your witness). These poor devils were required to schlepp the 72,500 railroad ties from the railroad siding and into the camp by hand (that’s 145 railroad ties per day per slave) and build an 11 story stucture, by hand, with no use of machinery - the only known machine at Treblinka being a tired old steam shovel that was employed in the disinterment, remember, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. By the way, there are no eyewitness accounts, nor any transport records, of any trainloads of railroad ties pulling into Treblinka, nor does anyone know what forest must have been razed to produce them.
Are we all getting the picture here? Wait - there’s more. Did I mention there was a rebellion and prison breakout in the middle of all this? Busy, busy, busy jews. But back to the engineering problem. We need an initiator - some way to start the fire, some kind of kindling. A railroad tie won’t catch when you hold a match to it. The fables - er, I mean the testimony - says they used diesel fuel. Anybody care to speculate how many tank cars full of diesel fuel this project required, while there was a diesel-fueled war between huge panzer armies of unparalleled ferocity raging a few score miles to the east, by a Germany starved for fuel of all kinds? Anybody? Anybody know how these poor starving slaves got this fuel sprayed all over a 107’ by 107’ by 11 story tall structure without the use of pumps? Imagine the flames and heat resulting from this conflagration. The temperatures had to reach, what, 3000 degrees F? No one could approach within one hundred yards of such a blaze and live. There must have been a small windstorm in the area as this gigantic fire sucked in millions of yards of air. The ashes and coals must have remained unapproachably hot for at least three or four days after the fire burned out, wouldn’t you agree? So the project must have required at least three burn sites, each some fifty yards from the next, as they rotated the construction of the pyres each day through each site. You can’t build an 11 story pyre on top of a bed of hot coals, can you? No - you have to move to a new site and build your next day’s pyre there. Every single day, for 120 days. The scale and the workload of a project like this is staggering. But the jews aren’t through yet! Not a trace of the deed was left, they say - it was completely obliterated. The camp blown up, the burning pit covered over, the site disguised to look like a farm, complete with a new farmhouse with a Polish farm family installed. No evidence was left. Imagine the gigantic mess of killing 870,000 people, burying them, digging them back up, and burning them to ashes. Imagine that. And there is no trace left - not so much as a residue of ash or charred bone fragments or a kosher fingernail.Mobile gassing vans, using the exhaust fumes of diesel engines to kill passengers, were used to kill Jews at Chelmno and Treblinka - as well as other sites, not all of them concentration camps - starting in November 1941.19 At least 320,000 Chelmno prisoners, most of them Jews, were killed by this method; a total of 870,000 Jews were murdered at Treblinka using gas vans and diesel-powered gas chambers.20 Gas chambers were installed and operated at Belzec, Lublin, Sobibor, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau from September 3, 1941, when the first experimental gassing took place at Auschwitz, until November 1944.22 Working with chambers measuring an average 225 square feet, the Nazis forced to their deaths 700 to 800 men, women and children at a time.22 Two-thirds of this program was completed in 1943-44, and at its height it accounted for as many as 20,000 victims per day.23 Authorities have estimated that these gas chambers accounted for the deaths of approximately 2E to 3 million Jews. Holocaust-denial attacks on this record of mass murder intensified following the end of the Cold War when it was reported that the memorial at Auschwitz was changed in 1991 to read that 1 million had died there, instead of 4 million as previously recorded. For Holocaust deniers, this change appeared to confirm arguments that historical estimates of Holocaust deaths had been deliberately exaggerated, and that scholars were beginning to "retreat" in the face of "revisionist" assertions. Thus, for example, Willis Carto wrote in the February 6, 1995, issue of The Spotlight, the weekly tabloid of his organization, Liberty Lobby, that

In fact, Western scholars have never supported the figure of 4 million deaths at Auschwitz; the basis of this Soviet estimate - an analysis of the capacity of crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau - has long been discredited. As early as 1952, Gerald Reitlinger, a British historian, had convincingly challenged this method of calculation. Using statistics compiled in registers for Himmler, he asserted that approximately 1 million people had died at Auschwitz; Raul Hilberg in 1961, and Yehuda Bauer in 1989, confirmed Reitlinger's estimate of Auschwitz victims. Each of these scholars, nonetheless, has recognized that nearly 6 million Jews were killed overall during the Holocaust.24 Polish authorities were therefore responding to long-accepted Western scholarship, further confirmed subsequently by documents released in post-Soviet Russia; the cynical allegations of "Holocaust revisionism" played no part in their decision."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...ust/denial.html

There was couple of things which made me doubt if the official form of the Holocaust was true. First, I've heard many years ago that 4 million people died in there, but our guide mentioned the number 1 million. What happened to 3 million Jews? Then, the piles of hair. We were told that hair still had residues of Zyklon B as an evidence that gassing really happened. But I've heard that the hair was cut BEFORE going to the gas chambers. And if one think about it, it's a lot easier to cut the hair when people are alive, than cut the hair of the dead people, when the operation would be messy and the hair may not be in good condition enough to use it as a material for fabrics and other things. And the hair was anyway for hygienic reasons. There is no physical evidence of gas chambers, the death total at Auschwitz has been reduced from 4 million to 1.5 million (of which not all were jews.) Yet, the holocaust total remained unchanged,claims of Dachau and other camps on German soil being "death camps" were outright lies - that the jews now admit that no camp on German soil was ever a "death camp and Ben-Gurion felt it more important to establish a jewish state in Palestine, than to save the jews of Europe. I have reams of transport records - including records showing "several thousand" inmates were moved OUT of Treblinka, as mentioned above. Out - of an alleged death camp. I have the Stroop report open on my desk, and certainly it does refer to transfers and resettlements, mentioning TII - Treblinka.What happened to the jews when they got to Treblinka?We have books full of testimony. I have on my desk the books "Treblinka" and "Into That Darkness"; the former a horror story now discredited even by the jews, the latter a "portrait" of Franz Stangl by Gitta Sereny so structureless and whimsical that it borders on incoherence. And these books are characteristic of Treblinka testimony.We have testimony that there was one gas chamber; two gas chambers; huge gas chamber, little gas chamber; no gas chamber at all, but rather a steam chamber; no gas chamber, no steam chamber, but rather electrical plates for people to stand on and be electrocuted; Adolf Eichmann stated (admittedly under duress) that he visited Treblinka (maybe) and saw two wooden shacks to the east of the rail tracks which someone told him were gas chambers. The camp was to the west. But no matter; we have testimony that there was one camp; testimony that there were two camps; testimony that there were two, two, two camps in one - the upper camp and the lower camp. Jewish historian Rachel Auerbach, a member of an official Polish commission that inspected the camp site in November 1945 -- that is, a few months after the end of the war -- reported finding large human bones, "rotted masses of corpses," "pieces of half-rotted corpses," and "fully dressed" corpses, at the Treblinka camp site. They took no photos, of course. Who would think of such a thing?On the other hand we hear from Gitta Sereny, among others including Kurt Franz, that the site was obliterated and disguised as a farm, complete with farmer, who claimed he had lived there for years. Gitta did think of photos and includes a photograph of the farmhouse she says was built by the SS as part of the cover-up. Not likely they'd go to all that trouble and then leave rotting corpses laying all about for Rachel to find, is it?The only common element to be found in Treblinka testimony, my friends, is contradiction.I'm sure my colleague will provide more examples; MuadDib's latest favorite is the steam chamber story - which not even the jews ask anyone to believe any more, yet they obtained convictions at Nuremburg with exactly such steam chamber testimony. The modern version is that the deed was done with diesel exhaust. They don't talk about steam chambers at all now.I say contradiction except in one thing: all attest to ghastly murder on a huge scale. Well, one would expect some evidence to be left in or upon the earth of such a massively horrible undertaking. What will you find when you go to Treblinka now?Nothing. A peaceful pasture, and no trace of any murder can be found there.I have testimony, all right. But we have no forensic evidence.These are but a few of the blatant lies that have contributed to "the Holocaust." I will demonstrate the numerous, systematic lies by the jews, that have turned a footnote from World War II, into the "defining moment" of the 20th Century.

On the topic of the steam chamber myth, I submit the following ...

The generally accepted story today is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed at Treblinka in gas chambers with poisonous exhaust from engines. But the "original" Treblinka extermination story was that Jews were steamed to death there in "steam chambers."According to an "eyewitness" account received in November 1942 in London from the Warsaw ghetto underground organization, Jews were exterminated in "death rooms" at Treblinka with "steam coming out of the numerous holes in the pipes." (note 1) In August 1943, the New York Times reported that two million Jews had already been killed at Treblinka by steaming them to death. (note 2) The Treblinka steam story is also given in detail in The Black Book of Polish Jewry, a work published in New York in 1943 and "sponsored" by Albert Einstein, Mrs. Eleanor Roosevelt, Congressman Sol Bloom, New York Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia, and other personalities. (note 3) Another book, Lest We Forget, published in New York in 1943 by the World Jewish Congress, describes in detail how Jews were steamed to death, and provides a diagram showing the location of the purported "boiler room" that produced the "live steam." (note 4)According to a 1944 "eyewitness" account compiled by the OSS, the principle US intelligence agency, Jews at Treblinka "were in general killed by steam and not by gas as had been at first suspected." (note 5) At the main uremberg trial of 1945-1946, two conflicting stories were given: steaming and gassing. Former Treblinka prisoner Samuel Rajzman testified that Jews were killed there in gas chambers. (note 6) (To confuse matters still more, a few months earlier Rajzman claimed that during the time he was in Treblinka, Jews were "suffocated to death" there with a machine that pumped air out of death chambers.) (note 7)American prosecutors at the main Nuremberg trial supported the steam story. As proof, a Polish government report dated December 5, 1945, was submitted as prosecution exhibit USA-293. It charged that Jews were killed at the camp "by suffocating them in steam-filled chambers." This report, which says nothing about poison gas killings, was published in the official Nuremberg trial record as document PS-3311. (note 8) An American prosecutor quoted from this report during his address to the Tribunal on December 14, 1945. (note 9)Although no reputable historian now supports the "steam" story, and little has been heard of it during the last several decades, it was revived in a widely-circulated booklet published in 1979 and 1985 by the influential Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith. (note 10)There may have been a factual basis for the "steam chamber" stories. It is quite possible that there was indeed some kind of steaming operation at Treblinka -- but one designed to kill disease-carrying lice, not people. Such disinfection steaming was commonly used in German camps for Allied prisoners of war. (note 11)Shortly after the war, the World Jewish Congress published The Black Book, a 559-page volume of real and imagined wartime atrocities against Jews. At Treblinka alone, the book alleges, three million persons were killed. Three diabolical techniques, including poison gas and steam, were supposedly used there to kill some 10,000 Jews daily. But "the most widespread" method "consisted of pumping all the air out from the chambers with large special pumps." (note 12) A former inmate testified shortly after the war that Treblinka's victims were "poisoned by the different gasses or asphyxiated when the chamber was turned into a vacuum and all the air sucked out." (note 13)In the Nuremberg trial of Oswald Pohl, U.S. Judge Michael A. Musmanno declared that "death was inflicted here [at Treblinka] by gas and steam, as well as by electric current." Citing Nuremberg document PS-3311, Musmanno declared: "After being filled up to capacity the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in." (note 14)Adolf Eichmann, the wartime head of the SS Jewish affairs section, said in 1961 during pre-trial interrogation in Israel that during the war he "was told" that Jews were gassed at Treblinka "with potassium cyanide." (note 15)One of the strangest Treblinka extermination stories, which appeared in September 1942 in a Polish underground periodical, claimed that Jews were killed there with a "delayed action" gas: (note 16)

They enter it [the gas chamber] in groups of 300-500 people. Each group is immediately closed hermetically inside, and gassed. The gas does not affect them immediately, because the Jews still have to continue on to the pits that are a few dozen meters away, and whose depth is 30 meters. There they fall unconscious, and a digger covers them with a thin layer of earth. Then another group arrives.

According to the testimony of yet another "eyewitness," a Jew named Oskar Berger who escaped from the camp, many Jews were systematically put to death at Treblinka by shooting them with rifle and machine-gun fire. (note 17)

1. "Likwidacja zydowskiej Warszawy, Treblinka," Biuleytn Zydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego (Warsaw), Jan.-June 1951, pp. 93-100. Quoted in: Carlo Mattogno, "The Myth of the Extermination of the Jews," The Journal of Historical Review, Fall 1988, pp. 273-274, 295 (n. 16).
2. New York Times, Aug. 8, 1943, p. 11. Reprinted in: The Record: The Holocaust in History (New York: ADL, 1985), p. 10. (The Record was also distributed as an advertising supplement to the New York Post, April 17, 1978.)
3. Jacob Apenszlak, ed., The Black Book of Polish Jewry (New York: 1943), pp. 142-143, 145.
4. World Jewish Congress, Lest We Forget (New York: 1943), pp. 4, 6-7.; See also the reference to killings at Treblinka by "hot steam" in Hitler's Ten-Year War On the Jews (p. 149), a book published in New York in 1943 by the "Institute of Jewish Affairs," an agency of the American Jewish Congress and the World Jewish Congress.
5. OSS document, April 13, 1944. National Archives (Washington, DC), Military Branch, Record Group 226 (OSS records), No. 67231.
6. International Military Tribunal, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal, uremberg: 1947-1949, ("blue series"), Vol. 8, p. 325. (Feb. 27, 1946)
7. Rajzman text in: Yuri Suhl, ed., They Fought Back (New York: 1967), p. 130.; This story also appears in: Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York: 1982), p. 263.
8. IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the International Military Tribunal (IMT "blue series"/ 1947-1949), vol. 32, pp. 153-158; Also published in: Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression (NC&A "red series"/ 1946-1948), Vol. 5, pp. 1104-1108. See also: NC&A ("red series"), vol. 1, pp. 1005-1006.
9. IMT, Trial of the Major War Criminals ("blue series"), vol. 3, p. 567-568.
10. The Record: The Holocaust in History. (The NYT report of Aug. 8, 1943, is reproduced here.)
11. Major S. G. Cowper, "A Note on a Disinfestation Plant Used in a Typhus Hospital for Prisoners of War in Germany," Journal of the Royal Army Medical Corps, Sept. 1946, Vol. 87, No. 3, pp. 173-176.; "Typhus," 1922 supplement to Encyclopaedia Britannica. Facsimile reprint in: Carlos Porter, Made in Russia (1988), p. 364.; Globocnik reported in Jan. 1944 that textile goods seized in the course of "Aktion Reinhardt" were disinfected. See: 4024-PS. IMT "blue series," vol. 34, p. 84. Jacob Seewald, a Polish Jew, spent the war years working as a forester in a German labor camp. When he came down with a severe illness, he was transferred to a hospital, where he recovered. After the war he emigrated to the United States. In a 1983 interview, he recalled that the camp authorities "took us [Jewish workers] into a shower for the steam to kill lice. There we got no clothes, just a bundle with our names on them. Naked. Then they turn on the water for a second -- scalding water." (John C. Bromely, "Stories from the Darkness," The Denver Post Magazine, Sunday, June 12, 1983, p. 20.) Similar events at Treblinka may perhaps have provided a basis for the camp's "steam" legend.
12. Jewish Black Book Comm., The Black Book (1946), pp. 407-408.
13. Isaiah Trunk, Jewish Responses (New York: 1982), p. 263.
14. Trials of the War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals (NMT "green series"/ Washington, DC: 1949-1953), vol. 5, pp. 1133-1134.
15. Jochen von Lang, ed., Eichmann Interrogated (New York: 1983), p. 84.; See also: R. Aschenauer, ed., Ich, Adolf Eichmann (1980), pp. 179, 183.
16. "Information Bulletin," Sept. 8, 1942, published by the command of the Polish underground "Armia Krajowa." Quoted in: Yitzhak Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka (Bloomington: 1987), pp. 353 f.
17. E. Kogon, Theory and Practice of Hell (New York: Berkley, pb., 1981), pp. 183-185.

Mark Weber and Andrew Allen. I would like to show that the jews have a pattern of extreme exaggeration when it comes to them being the "victims."

Here are two early "holocaust" tales from the Talmud:

Gittin 57b claims that four billion jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar.

Gittin 58a claims that 16 million jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans.

Ancient demography indicates that there were not 16 million jews in the entire world at that time, much less 16 million Jewish children or four billion jews.

I intend to address the falseness of even the lower number at a later time. My only intention at this time, is to demonstrate the pattern of exaggeration of the jews.

An interesting objection is the claim that nobody would dare invent such a tale as the six million legend; nobody has the extraordinary imagination required and, even if he did, the obvious risk in telling such gigantic lies should dissuade him. The argument amounts to the claim that the mere existence of the legend implies the truth of its essentials, so I suppose that we can classify it as the hoaxers' ontological argument.
What is interesting about this objection is its superficially logical quality. Indeed I imagine that this calculation accounts in good measure for the widespread acceptance of the legend; people assume that nobody would be so brazen as to invent such lies. Nevertheless the logic is not sound, for history affords us numerous examples of popular acceptance of gigantic lies, and in this connection we can again cite witchcraft hysteria as precedent for the psychological essential of the six million hoax. It is ironic that Hitler anticipated the psychology of the "big lie" in his remarks on the subject in Chapter X of Mein Kampf. It is also ironic that the most mind-boggling accounts of exterminations appear in the Jewish Talmudic literature in connection with the last two of the three great Jewish revolts against Rome, the Diaspora revolt of 115-117 AD and the Palestine revolt of 132-135 AD. In connection with the Palestine revolt of 66-70 AD the Talmudic writings do nothing more than bewail the loss of the temple in Jerusalem and discuss implications of the loss for Jewish law. A good discussion of the three reports is given in Michael Grant's The Jews in the Roman World. According to the ancient accounts (mainly Cassius Dio, who wrote around 200 AD, and Eusebius, the early fourth century Bishop of Caesarea) the Diaspora revolt started in Cyrenaica (northeast Libya) at a time when the Emperor Trajan had, for the purposes of annexing Parthia and its valuable Mesopotamian territory, constituted a huge eastern army at the price of withdrawing many small contingents which had served to keep order in various parts of the Empire. The Jews attacked the Greek and Roman civilian population and it is said that they killed 220,000 in Cyrenaica, amusing themselves in various gruesome ways. The revolt then spread to Egypt where the Jews killed an unknown number, and to Cyprus, where they are said to have killed 240,000. In Alexandria, however, the predominantly Greek population gained control of events and are said to have massacred that city. Recent archeological evidence indicates that the ancient accounts are not exaggerated. The Talmud says almost nothing about this revolt, except to give the number of Jews killed in Alexandria as "sixty myriads on sixty myriads, twice as many as went forth from Egypt", i.e. 1,200,000 on the assumption that addition and not multiplication is intended. The killings are blamed on "the Emperor Hadrian," which may be due to the fact that the Hadrian was at the time the commander of Trajan's eastern army and succeeded Trajan as Emperor when Trajan died in 117, possibly before the final suppression of the revolt. The figure given for the number of Jewish victims is obviously exaggerated for, while it is usually difficult to be more than approximately correct in estimating the population of ancient cities, Alexandria of the period had a population of 500,000 or more, with an upper bound of one million a reasonable one to assume because that was the approximate population of the city of Rome, a figure concerning which there is also some uncertainty, but if Rome ever attained a population significantly greater than one million, it never got near two million. The 1,200,000 martyred Jews may seem a brazen invention but you haven't seen anything yet. The next great revolt was in Palestine in 132-135 and was a serious attempt by its leader, Bar-Kokhba, to set up a Jewish state with himself as king, although he eventually claimed to be the Messiah. During the revolt he made laws, issued money, and performed the other regular functions of government. Bar-Kokhba's end came in 135. Jerusalem not being suitable to withstand a siege, he led the remnants of his army to Bathar (the present Bittir), which is located on high ground about ten miles southwest of Jerusalem, 25 miles from the Dead Sea and 35 miles from the Mediterranean. The dimensions of the ancient town were roughly rectangular, with a north-south length of about 600 meters and an east-west width of about 200 metres. The south half of the town was fortified. These dimensions plus the fact of the estimates for the Jewish population of Palestine of the time ranged from a low of 500,000 to a high of 2.5 million make it unlikely that Bar-Kokhba's Bethar army numbered as many as 50,000 men. The Romans laid siege to Bethar in the summer of 135 and Bar-Kokhba's resistance collapsed in August. The Romans broke into the fortress and Bar-Kokhba was killed in that final battle. For general reasons it seems unlikely that the Romans carried out a massacre of the Jewish population of Bethar. The only "evidence" for a general massacre occurs in the Talmudic literature (including in this context the Midrash Rabbah) which for reasons unknown comments extensively on the siege of Bethar and its supposed aftermath. Except where noted, the Talmudic passages are reproduced in the Appendix to the book Bar-Kokhba by the archaeologist Yigael Yadin. The size of Bar-Kokhba's Bethar army is given as 200,000 men. Bar-Kakhba is said to have been so tough that, when the Romans catapulted missiles into his fort, he would intercept the missiles with his knee with such force that he would knock them back into the faces of the astonished Romans, killing many. The Talmud goes on to claim that the number of Jews killed by the Romans after the fortress fell was 4 billion "or as some say" 40 million, while the Midrash Rabbah reports 800 million martyred Jews. In order to reassure us that these figures are given in earnest, the necessarily accompanying events are set forth. The blood of the slain Jews reached to the nostrils of the Romans' horses and then, like a tidal wave, plunged a distance of one mile or four miles to the sea, carrying large boulders along with it, and staining the sea a distance of four miles out.

[...]

The Romans matched the Germans in efficiency, for the bodies of the slain Jews were used to build a fence around Hadrian's vineyard, which is said to have been eighteen miles square, and blood saved over from the tidal wave was used to fertilize Roman vineyards for seven years. Shades of soap, glue and fertilizer factories!


From Arthur R. Butz: The Hoax of the Twentieth Century , Historical Review Press, 1976, pp. 245-247

Ask yourself some very simple questions about Nazi Germany:

First, did they hate the jews?Second, how long were the Nazies in charge?
Third, who was in control of whom during WW2 between 1938-1945?
Fourth, were the Nazies relatively smart, orchestrate a plan, could follow a logical path, and carry out a plan from start to end?Fifth, how long can a man survive without water, food, or shelter?Finally, did the Nazies hate enough, had enough time, in charge, and smart enough to come up with a plan to deny basic necessities where there wouldn't be any survivors to come out of a concentration camp?Ask yourself how long can you go without water (days), food (maybe 2-3 months), or shelter (Germany winter without clothes or buildings, after all they like showing scrawny naked jews, most likely won't survive the first snow)? Simple logic, if the Germans wanted to eliminate the jews there is absolutely no way there would be any survivors to tell the tale (Guilt ridden guards? Unfortunately this wasn't the case it was tortured soldiers during Nuremburg which has not only been documented but every now and then shown on the history channel)? Have your ever wondered why there are so many claiming to survive as a prisoner and so few claiming to be a guard, someone who rounds up the jews, or someone who worked for a manufacturing company that specialised in making gas chambers, toxins, ovens, or maintenance of the process in killing jews (or name of companies associated with such products like "Adolf's Ovens" for example)?Think in terms of playing a game and having a very dominate position (like in chess, when your opponent just down to a King and you have a Queen, two Rooks, and your King) and ask what are the possibility of this game being victorious for the weak side (none), tie (very unlikely), or victory for the the dominate (would have to literally throw the game away in the form of a tie).Just ask yourself why there are no mention of Slavics (whom the Germans setup camp for) being slaughtered either (it didn't happen intentionally but when the infrastructure was damaged routing resources then become prioritised). What is so special about the "6 million jews" when a greater number and percentage of victims in the last century were killed by communism (20-30 million christians in Russia, 60-100 million in China, and when going to percentage what Pol Pot did to his own ethnicity [or between a quarter and a third of the country's population]).

1) What manufactured company brand of oven was used to cremate the jews?

2) What manufacturing company brand that specialised in making gas chambers, toxins, ovens, or maintenance of the process in killing jews?

All the allied soldiers rescued were starving jews in the camps but then that would be expected as the infrastructure was destroyed so most likely the food supply didn't make it there. Ask yourself why should they have bothered to feed them or why did they feed them long enough for the jews to be rescued? You can't be much of a conservative if you aren't up to using facts, common sense, and trusting the liberal media about liberal propaganda which simply couldn't happen the way it's being told (seriously look at the five points I brought up in the previous post and really think about this).This fabrication known as the Holocaust was established by the mass media. The Jewish Zionists came up with the original idea, and has since been supported by literally every Jewish community.... now wanting their 'share' of Holocaust profits. Ultimately, it is a front.... and it carefully shields Jewish organized crime.Anybody with two eyes can see this!The best site for Holohoax fairy tales is www.corax.org/revisionism/nonsense/ Don't miss the 'Pedal-actuated brain bashing machine', 'Nazi use of atomic weapons to kill Jews' and 'Extermination by pruning'. Strange how these wild tales were all 'authenticated' ... and then vanished without trace.You have proved nothing, merely spewed forth a mishmash of Jew sites. Why not prove Abraham existed by quoting the Old Testament? Why not prove Jason sailed with fifty Greek heroes by quoting from The Argonauts? Why not prove God spoke to Mohammed by quoting the Koran? Why not prove giants lived in upstate New York by quoting The Book of Mormon?A few years ago a German company (Siemens) who made ovens, were going to sue the German Government for accusing them of using their ovens in the so called holocaust. Some testimonies are false, and almost all sources are biased. If everything ever said about the Holocaust was 100% true why do they keep changing their own story?

What does that mean? So it’s ok that the Nazis killed millions of Jews because you think that the communists would have just done it themselves?

That means that you agree with one part of my argument. I said that millions of Jewish people died during the Holocaust and you just agreed with me. So the whole of our argument now rests on whether Jewish people were killed in gas chambers.

The Nazis killed most of them.

It seems that you have no problem accepting any of the historian’s claims except when it comes to the Jewish Holocaust. I don’t think you would have a problem with the historical accuracy of the Holocaust either if you didn’t feel that the Jewish people received sympathy. If everyone said “yes, during the Holocaust millions of Jews were killed, but we don’t much care,” I don’t think we would even be having this debate. To me this indicates a clear bias for some reason. Just because some people have made money from the Holocaust doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen

I agree with you to the extent that it’s a bad idea to lock people up for having unpopular opinions. However there are very solid reasons that these countries have laws against denying the Holocaust. Most of those countries are in Europe where they are still very sensitive about WW2 and the Holocaust. After experiencing the horrors of the Holocaust those countries wanted to make sure that it never happened again. The western leaders at the time of WW2 knew that if they didn’t carefully document all of the evidence that in 50 years people would deny it ever happened. By denying the Holocaust these people are upholding the Nazis ideology, which was to deny everything to the world so that they could fulfill a purpose that the rest of the world wouldn’t approve of. The countries that make those laws are tying to keep the memory of the Holocaust alive, with all of its atrocities, so that history won’t repeat itself.

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That’s totally false. There were gas chambers before even WW2. The Nazis used them as part of their Eugenics and racial hygiene programs. Thousands of physically and mentally handicapped people were killed in gas chambers using CO. Some of the Nazi gas chambers of the death camps were built before the time that article was written. An article about gassings during the time that the Nazis had already started to mass murder people in the gas chamber hardly speaks of a Jewish conspiracy to me. No one had to discover the gas chambers 3 years after the war. The Nazis knew very well of their existence and so did thousands of survivors and so did some German civilians. All the evidence shows this. The people being gassed certainly knew of their existence as they were being murdered.

Wrong again. Leave chemistry to chemists.

Constantly shifting arguments without a moment’s hesitation indicates bias. If someone really doubted the Holocaust because of discovered evidence, like the lack of sufficient amounts of lethal gas, then they would rethink their position when it was proved incorrect. The fact that you shift so quickly in your interpretation means you have already formed a conclusion and are simply looking for evidence to back you preconceived opinion.

Sterilization is the process of destroying microorganisms. Zyclon-B was used to disinfect the clothes of lice, not sterilization. HCN would have little effect on anaerobic bacteria. The Nazis were very efficient and they used the same chemical that they used to kill lice as they used to kill people. The delycing chambers were quite small compared to the gas chambers that they killed people in. It would be very inefficient to use so large a chamber if you were only going to disinfect clothes. They had large chambers that they killed people in with Zyclon-B and small chambers that they used to kill lice in with Zyclon-B. It’s interesting that once Himmler referred to what he thought was much the same process.

"…..Anti-Semitism is exactly the same as delousing. Getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology. It is a matter of cleanliness."

The problem with the theory that Hoss’s confession is just a fraud that he invented to avoid more torture is the mountain of evidence that supports his testimony. If it were the sole piece of evidence for the Holocaust then it would be very suspect, but it’s not even close. Hoss’s testimony completely supports the other mountain of evidence. It’s not even critical and neither is any once piece of evidence because there is so much of it. No one knows with absolute accuracy how many people were killed. You have, however, already admitted to the fact that it was at least 3 million.

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You are spreading the same propaganda that the Nazis spread. If you had bothered to read any credible history books about the Holocaust you would have realized that the Nazis created a special camp for the Red Cross to visit. I have already mentioned this in a former post. The camp was called the family camp and it was part of the Nazi propaganda. The Nazis also created Theresienstadt: The “Model” Ghetto, which was a spa-like camp where the Nazis made a film about how wonderfully they treated the Jews. It was all lies and deception.

Your statement about the crematoria is nothing but complete misinformation. They hastily built 5 massive crematoriums with adjourning gas chambers? Auschwitz didn’t need 5 massive crematoriums to burn prisoners that died from typhus. With the capacity to cremate 12,000 corpses a day Auschwitz’s crematorium could have burned 4.3 million people in a year. That’s enough to cremate whole camp 10 times over plus all the surrounding countryside

This whole paragraph is a melting pot of logical fallacies, contradictions, and irrationality. In fact, the same can be said for the whole revisionism camp.

This is just a ridiculous straw man. The Red Cross only had so much power and they did try to help out the Jews. They claimed that if they denounced the Nazis treatment of the Jews then it would only worsen the conditions for the camps' residents. They know what happened to the Jews during the Holocaust and that’s why they work so hard on the Holocaust reunions today.

Think before you write. In this very same post you have provided a similar example to the Holocaust which proves it’s not so unimaginable.

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With the mention of the soviet Gulags you have provided an example of a modern nation that systematically killed millions of people in death camps. There are other examples of attempted genocide and mass murder during recent times.

I think after this paragraph everything else is just plagiarized. I asked you to only write your own arguments but you obviously can’t. All of the testimony stuff is just copied as well. Why? Why do you feel the need to copy entire revisionist web pages? Wouldn’t it be pretty silly if we both just went to random Holocaust sites and copied everything on to this forum? That’s not a debate. You have wasted my time.

This is utterly disgusting. You have revealed your true nature. You and whoever wrote this text have devalued the suffering that millions of people had to endure. There is something special about the 6 million Jewish people that went through the Holocaust and the five million Russians, Polish civilians, and Gypsies that went through it with them. There is something special about the millions of Russians and Chinese that died at the hands of their oppressors. They experienced suffering that we cannot imagine and the survivors have gained strength that we will never have.

That last part of the quoted paragraph is the true reason for revisionism. Revisionists aren’t concerned about the historical accuracy of the Holocaust. They are not interested in debate. It’s about fear and hatred towards a group of people. They hate the way the world views the Holocaust because it portrays the Jewish people as innocent victims. They hate the Holocaust because they hate the Jewish people.

After reading many revisionist articles I have found that they are nothing more than ranting of addled hate-filled minds. They are filled with conspiracy theories about the Zionists and the evil Israeli State. They deny or diminish the Holocaust, often claiming that it was simply a Jewish plot. What they call truth and evidence is really propaganda, filled with miscalculations, misquotations, misrepresentations, logical fallacies, rhetoric tricks, and outright lies. The glue that binds this farce together is the same glue that binds all unsubstantiated theories together—a belief system. Except their beliefs have nothing to do with God; it’s all about an irrational fear of the Jewish people.

I believe some revisionists comprehend the fallacies of their arguments, but pushing their agenda is more important to them than the truth. Some of them, however, are just foolish. They buy into the revisionists’ arguments because they are ignorant. They read the revisionist lies and they are caught, hook, line, and sinker. Either way, they become the peddlers of lies, roaming from forum to forum spreading their poison. But wherever they go, they have nothing to offer except deceit.

Since one of the participants no longer wishes to continue, this debate has gone to public poll early.

Vote here.