Are we a virus?

[Zeo]

My question is this. Are we, humans, the supposedly most advanced species on the planet, a virus? Not a virus as in something that gives you a disease. No, the virus dub is just a metaphor. If anyone has ever seen the matrix (no, I'm not going to talk about that), then you would have heard one of the characters explain that humans are a virus, a parasite to this planet. So, based on this, let us reason. Over the constant evolution of Earth's inhabitants, all the species have maintained a symbiotic relationship with the Earth. The species have come close to extinction, and yet, their symbiotic relationship allowed them to surface again. However, as humans evolved, we started migrating. But not migrating like salmon, or buffalo, or birds. We spread out. Just as a parasite spreads through the body, we spreaded through earth. Other animals that migrated, they used up what they needed, left, then returned when everything grew back. Perfect symbiosis. However, humans, we all spread out. Since we have little body hair, we are believed to originate from Kenya. However, now, we are on nearly every continent. Spreading, eating up Earth's resources. Sure, now, we've realized our drastic mistakes and are trying to recycle, and reuse, and other methods of repair. However, is Earth's damage reparable? Already, there is a massive hole in the O-zone, because of CO2, and also, pretty soon we'll use up all of our fossil fuels (ten years, maybe less). Of couse, humans will probably come up with another technological advancement, but at what cost? In less than a century, we've punched a hole in the ozone, used up about 3/4 of our natural resources, and drove several species to extinction. I'm not saying that we did it on purpose, And I know we're trying to repair it, but....will we be too late? ...I dunno. ....:flame: :sucks: :uhh: :owned: :shrug: :scratch: :help: :rant: :worship: :loser:

:scratch:
:stupid:

[fafalone]

If anyone has ever seen the matrix (no, I'm not going to talk about that), then you would have heard one of the characters explain that humans are a virus, a parasite to this planet.
But the rest of your post just repeats what Agent Smith said.
Over the constant evolution of Earth's inhabitants, all the species have maintained a symbiotic relationship with the Earth.
Other species haven't evolved the technological capability to do otherwise. The species have come close to extinction, and yet, their symbiotic relationship allowed them to surface again.
So no species has ever gone extinct without humans forcing it?
However, as humans evolved, we started migrating. But not migrating like salmon, or buffalo, or birds. We spread out. Just as a parasite spreads through the body, we spreaded through earth.
A population will spread out into whatever nearby environments it's suited to live in; with humans this is virtually all.
Other animals that migrated, they used up what they needed, left, then returned when everything grew back. Perfect symbiosis.
Again, if animals knew how, they'd do the same thing as us. However, is Earth's damage reparable? Already, there is a massive hole in the O-zone, because of CO2,
There's evidence suggesting the ozone would develop holes on its own anyway. And if CO2 causes ozone holes it would have been gone millennia ago since all plants produce it all the time. I think you mean CO (carbon monoxide).
and also, pretty soon we'll use up all of our fossil fuels (ten years, maybe less). Of couse, humans will probably come up with another technological advancement, but at what cost?
Alternative fuel systems being developped, though financially costful, do little or no damage to the environment. Hydrogen fuel cells, for example, have a waste product of water.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Zeo
all the species have maintained a symbiotic relationship with the Earth.


no, as they grew to large numbers, predators killed them off, we don't have any predators. we also have agriculture, which allows us to artificially increase the resources available to us. the fact that the planet isn't really big enough to cope with our numbers doesn't really have anything to do with symbiosis, it is tjust the mthods we use are a tad effective.




Already, there is a massive hole in the O-zone, because of CO2,



CFC's you mean? and I do believe that hole is shrinking too.

[aman]

Great question Zeo,
If we're a virus, we have the potential to be a damn smart virus.
We don't need to follow what our genetic coding says we must do. We have choice. There is the difference.
Just aman

[Zeo]

Let us consider the scenario of the deer and wolves. The wolves, eat the deer. The deer eat the grass, the grass eats (ok...maybe absorbs) the sun. A chain. The wolves eat all the deer. They run out of food, and begin to die. Deer reappear. Deer, with no predators, begin to reproduce at unheard of rates. They eat all the grass...and die. The grass...well, it has nothing to worry about. However, this is not the case, as the wolves won't eat al the deer. This thus, leads to the deer keeping limits on their population. thus....the wolves have plenty to eat, and the deer don't die of starvation. This is the symbiotic relationship I was talking about. You are right though, I was thinking of somethng I was doing in science...it had CO2...it should have been CO...not thinking. ....maybe I did talk about nothing but what agent smith said...oh well. Also, aman, you're right. We are a damn smart virus....and that we do have the ability to choose what we do with our great intelligence. And yes, I do understand that animals have evolved only to know what I was talking about...yeah.

[Zeo]

Let us consider the scenario of the deer and wolves. The wolves, eat the deer. The deer eat the grass, the grass eats (ok...maybe absorbs) the sun. A chain. The wolves eat all the deer. They run out of food, and begin to die. Deer reappear. Deer, with no predators, begin to reproduce at unheard of rates. They eat all the grass...and die. The grass...well, it has nothing to worry about. However, this is not the case, as the wolves won't eat al the deer. This thus, leads to the deer keeping limits on their population. thus....the wolves have plenty to eat, and the deer don't die of starvation. This is the symbiotic relationship I was talking about. You are right though, I was thinking of somethng I was doing in science...it had CO2...it should have been CO...not thinking. ....maybe I did talk about nothing but what agent smith said...oh well. Also, aman, you're right. We are a damn smart virus....and that we do have the ability to choose what we do with our great intelligence. And yes, I do understand that animals have evolved only to know what I was talking about...yeah.:zzz: :zzz: :zzz: :eek: ;) :confused: :bs: :lame: :spam: :zzz: :zzz: :-p :zzz: :rolleyes: :zzz: :embarass: :zzz: :eek: :zzz: :mad: ;) :-( :D :confused: :lame: :bs:

[Ami]

so you think we are viruses? that's sad, to think of yourself as such a hated thing.... :( but anyway, can deer plant grass or wolves artifically enseminate deer? no, we can recreate that which we kill, to some extent..... and did we make everything extinct? maybe indirectly speed them up, but cats could have found ways to come and kill of the doodoo's anyway, we just happened to unluckily speed things up.....

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Zeo
This thus, leads to the deer keeping limits on their population. thus....the wolves have plenty to eat, and the deer don't die of starvation.

the deer don't keep limits on their population, it's just that when there are more deer there are more wolves, which eat more deer so there are less deer and some wolves die. There isn't any symbiosis or 'instinctive equilibrium' occurring as such, it's just because the deer have a predator. humand don't have a predator, if we did, there would be loads of them in china and india munching away on people, and not so many in wales, and hence the population of china and india would drop, and wales would incraese.

[Katie]

I don't think that the food chain and symbiosis are so closely linked...

[Aquila Audax]

Every species changes it's environment in some manner. Many species are boom and bust species, they increase in number exponentially while the conditions are appropriate often to the point where they destroy their own food source and then collapse to a minimum population again.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Katie
I don't think that the food chain and symbiosis are so closely linked...

indeed. Symbiosis is two organisms living together for mutual benefit.

[aman]

I haven't seen any examples of a virus being a symbiot. I thought they were nasty little things that just did what they needed to in order to reproduce.
Just aman

[Zeo]

When I was refering to the symbiotic relationship, I was referring to cute little animals that kill each other. I was not referring to us, humans. We're the ones ruining the planet. Not the cute little animals that kill each other (heheh....well...maybe I'm exaggerating...):zzz:

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Zeo
When I was refering to the symbiotic relationship, I was referring to cute little animals that kill each other. I was not referring to us, humans. We're the ones ruining the planet. Not the cute little animals that kill each other (heheh....well...maybe I'm exaggerating...):zzz:

symbiants don't kill one another really. If you want a look at symbiosis (of a fairly simple order) then look at the little birds that live on the hides of elephants and hippos. There are also some fungi that live around the roots of certain trees which have a more complex relationship with their hosts. Indeed us humans have symbiotic partners in the form of bacteria such as e-coli which live in our gut.

[Ami]

symbiants are usually mutually beneficial, what you are talking about is parastic... i believe, unless i'm not getting your meaning..

[aman]

The bacteria he talks about in the gut aid in our absoption of nutrients. If you take antibiotics and get the runs, it's because the good bacteria get killed also. We have bugs crawling all over our eylashes and tear ducts keeping them clean and working. They are not parasites because they eat stuff we need to get rid of or change it so it's easier for us to use. Some defend our body from infections.
Just aman

[Sayonara³]

Originally posted by Zeo
Let us consider the scenario of the deer and wolves. <waffle waffle>That's (A) an artificial situation, and (B) wrong anyway. So quite a bad example really.

If you want to demonstrate something about humans, describe it in terms of humans - not in terms of fictional situations involving other species.

[Zeo]

Thankyou. I was wondering how people would react to my strange theories. It's good to know that someone's listening...and you're right. I should talk about human situations...so let's talk about "human situations".


ok...right now...i have no time...so you guys discuss this...

[fafalone]

Actually, the "runs" are due to water absorbtion efficienfy in the epithelial cells lining the large intestine, not e-coli are other symbiotic bacteria.

[aman]

Not always Faf. Sometimes it's from improper digestion of food solids. Like eating a couple of unripe fruits. After anibiotics, a good way to re-introduce good bacteria is eat yogurt or drink sweet acidopholis milk.
Are you saying the good bacteria facilitate absorption of water also? If that's the case then I guess the runs could get pretty bad if they're dead.
Just aman

[Ami]

well even though that's all good points, i think we got a tad off topic, Are we Viruses..?

[fafalone]

Always. Anything else you say "causes" it just causes changes in the water absorbing cells, this is the case with eating bad food.

[*Marmite*]

isnt a virus techinally non living? last time i checked most humans are living creatures.

[fafalone]

It's not living, but it's not non-living. And it's alot closer to living things than non-living things.

[aman]

Instead of viruses, bacteria, and parasites, which we act like at times I would think we are more like differentiated cells of an organism. Different purposes and lifetimes but all the same DNA.
Just aman

[*Marmite*]

amam seems right there; the first living organism must have been either a bacterium or a virus (something small anyways...i dont like biology). if it was a virus we have decended from viruses, if it was a bacterium then at some point in time one bacterium will have been infected by a virus, thus changing its genes to the viruses genes. is it possible that still today, however many billion years later, the most basic trait of a virus' DNA, "to multiply untill all resources have been exhausted then move on", is still within our genes? stands to reason.....other basic traits reman; the instinct to feed, reproduce etc. why not the virus trait?

then again, other animals must have also decended from those very earliest organisms, so why dont they behave in such a way? perhaps it is because they CANNOT behave like this, for exhausting all their resoures would mean the extiction of their species. the will to survive overrides most other instincts. humans are the most intelligent beings on the planet...we are capable of exhausing natural resources and finding an alternative afterwards. maybe this ablity gives rise to the natural virus trait.

maybe im just rambling lol

[fafalone]

Viruses evolved from bacteria.

[aman]

We'll know if we are like a virus when we discover life in the stars.
If we invade it, capitalize on all its resources, and leave it a dead memory, then we are a virus.
If we coexist and both gain, then we are finally humans as a society.
Just aman

[Zeo]

aman, you seem to be the only one to truly grasp the scope of this topic. Everyone here is seeming to forget that I said the virus thing was a METAPHOR. Maybe I wasn't clear. What i really meant was that we emulate viruses. Mimic them. Inadvertently of course, but still.

[fafalone]

Since there are some of us who realize what we're doing and are trying to stop it proves we're not a virus; this is an instance where its important not to look at the race as a whole.

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by Zeo
aman, you seem to be the only one to truly grasp the scope of this topic. Everyone here is seeming to forget that I said the virus thing was a METAPHOR. Maybe I wasn't clear. What i really meant was that we emulate viruses. Mimic them. Inadvertently of course, but still.

but fundamentally all life follows that particular path - the prolific dissemination of it's genetic line. infect a planet with bacteria and it will become infested with them (assuing they can survive) and the same would go for absolutely any animal, plant and so on. the only difference is, like virii, we have no natural predator, and hence can multiply with impunity.

[fafalone]

A primary limiting factor in animal reproduction is the carrying capacity of the environment. Populations are limited by available food and presence of predators. If animals had the ability to overcome these, all species would reproduce and spread like humans. Animals don't choose to limit the size of the population; they have no choice.

[spuriousmonkey]

Originally posted by fafalone
Viruses evolved from bacteria.
to be more specific,
didn't they think that viruses evolved from plasmids???

[Glider]

Originally posted by fafalone
It's not living, but it's not non-living. And it's alot closer to living things than non-living things.

This is true. Like seeds, viruses are spoken of as being 'viable' not 'alive'. You can't kill a virus, but you can render it inviable. Viruses fulfill none of the criteria for life (e.g. respiration, reproduction, ingestion, excretion etc.). In their most simple form, they are simply a strand of viral RNA in a protein coat.

Originally posted by fafalone
Viruses evolved from bacteria.
Given that bacteria are alive, and in some cases are surprisingly complex organisms, how do you reconcile your two statements?

In any event; "Are we a virus?" I don't think so. It doesn't work, even as an analogy. A better question might be "Are we bacteria?". On a global scale, the human species shows several startling similarities to bacteria.

[spuriousmonkey]

plasmids are really simple are a natural part of bacteria to exchange genetic information...hence a virus could have evolved from plasmids?!

[Radical Edward]

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
plasmids are really simple are a natural part of bacteria to exchange genetic information...hence a virus could have evolved from plasmids?!

failing that, something like mitochondria.

without a good understanding of what very very early pre and quasi cellular life looked like, it is difficult to say how virii and bacteria evolved. It might just have been that virii were a very early form of like that preyed on other reproductive strands of DNA/RNA, hijacking some of their mechanisms and reproducing themselves. they probably both came about at the same sort of time, in much the same way that common day symbiotic and parasitic relationships have done. It is unlikely that virii are an evolutionary throwback.

[Glider]

Originally posted by Radical Edward
failing that, something like mitochondria.

It might just have been that virii were a very early form of like that preyed on other reproductive strands of DNA/RNA, hijacking some of their mechanisms and reproducing themselves. they probably both came about at the same sort of time, in much the same way that common day symbiotic and parasitic relationships have done. It is unlikely that virii are an evolutionary throwback.

I agree. I think this is much more likely (but for 'early form of life', read early form of 'pre-life').
Mitochondria are interesting in themselves; an excellent example of symbiosis. Living organisms didn't evolve mitochondria, mitochondria evolved on their own and were incorporated into other single celled organisms millions of years before multicellular organisms evolved. Without them, it is unlikley that multicellular organisms could have evolved at all. But having evolved independently, they still retain a degree of functional independence. They carry their own DNA and can reproduce independently of the cell they occupy. They provide the cell with the energy it needs and in return are provided with all they need by the cell.
Yay for mitochondria! The best friends we have.