Do You Believe There is Intelligent Life Beyond Earth?

[Wolfgang Mozart]

Drake's Equation is used to show that chances are that intelligent life evolved in other parts of the universe.

Then I consider the possibility of Superstring Theory: alternative universes/dimensions where we would be completely oblivious to any intelligent life there.

And consider our limited intelligence: we may not have the cognitive abilities to see what is really out there, similar to how lower animals cannot know what humans know.

Reputable news sources, such as the History Channel, document many UFOs which to date have not been identified.

Stories about actual contact with ETs.

Paranormality/UFO/ET sources:
http://www.rense.com/ufo/ufo.htm
http://www.rense.com/historic/hist.htm
http://www.rense.com/general44/nmxx.htm
http://www.rense.com/general41/dayfo.htm
http://www.rense.com/general41/flying.htm
http://www.rense.com/general41/flying.htm
http://www.rense.com/general32/rapidflight.htm
http://www.rense.com/general31/woods1A.htm
http://www.rense.com/general32/rend.htm
http://www.rense.com/general43/orig.htm
http://www.rense.com/ufo4/historyofufo.htm

So, do I "believe"? Well, I am agnostic, as I think any rational person would be. But, I will say that I do find Earth very boring and hope that there is more to the universe.

Regards,

Wolfgang Mozart

[mooeypoo]

Like you, I'm also agnostic. I doubt practically everything :)

I do believe in life on other planets. Note: believe in LIFE in other planets. Not even just the possibility. I find it extremely illogical to think there AREN'T any life out there in such a huge infinite expanding universe.

HOWEVER :)

I strongly doubt they look like us. Even a little. Most of the UFO stories tell about green/gray little creatures with legs, hands, huge eyes and massive brains, probably two, three or fifteen fingers, clumsy legs, and so on.
Those, I strongly doubt.

Why? Well.. a few reasons:

1. I actually believe life is not only what we define. Life can be energy like. Life can be a "thought" lifeform. Life can also be something we can't possibly comprehend, like you said yourself.

2. I think about the vast universe, and the time it exists (according to today's science, of course), and I think that there's a muuuuuch much bigger possibility that if life came here they would be looking A LOOOTTTTTT different than us, since the possibility of life that look like us (hands/heads/eyes/legs..) actually existing relatively close enough to us to reach us in such short time (even if they found a way to travel faster than life, odds are we will encounter other life forms first) is slim.
I'm not saying a definite no. It *may* be, I haven't spent all my time actually getting into ALL the details of EVERY UFO encounter, but in my opinion, it's less plausible.

Furthermore, if ou notice, most of the stories are almost the SAME.
That, granted, can say they're talking bout things that actually happened -- BUT they can also tell legends. If you take 100 people that survived the same fire, each would tell you a COMPLETELY different story (what they've seen, what they felt, how it started, who got out first... yadda yadda).

Even if those things happened to all those people, I find it weird they ALL tell the EXACT same story.
Different people should have had different approaches... I don't know.. it's.. weird.

In any case, I also find the entire UFO case interresting. It doesn't matter if those are actual aliens or some covert experiments with weird air-crafts that the government is doing (all hail x-files!! ;) ) - either way it's interresting to find out what the hell those things are :D

So good post, but to sum it up (my opnion anyways) - There should be life out there, but UFOs aren't necessarily it :)

~moo

[aman]

When we build an instrument to detect sentience at a distance, even simple like in marine mammals, then we will be able to do a SETI type survey of the sky and look for more of us. I would imagine sentience would have an elecromagnetic signature although very weak. Maybe a detector on the far side of the moon. As far as life in very simple forms I think it will be soon evident in many areas of our universe. With the latest detection of excess methane in the Mars atmosphere we should be finding some little critters making it soon.
Just aman

[Pinch Paxton]

There should be other life out there statistically. I think that intelligent lifeforms would look something like Earth life, although which animal doesn't matter too much. Hands seem to be important, but I can imagine an intelligent parrot, or dog, cat, dolphin. Energy as a lifeform seems possible, but I doubt we would understand their communication, so we may not notice them.

Pincho.

[atinymonkey]

According to recent thinking, we are statistically most likely to be the first galaxy to be a candidate for the development of intelligent life. Bear in mind that everything outlying from this point in the universe is younger than our own galaxy only the galaxies more internal would be candidates for development, and the chance of one of those other solar systems managing development of life is very very slim. If there are any other galaxies where life is going to develop, it will probably happen a lot later on. So, if there are UFO's flying around anywhere in the future they may well be populated with guys from earth.

If you want to bring statistics into it all, anyhow. :-p

[Sayonara³]

Galaxies "further out" than ours are more numerous and have had more time to become populated. I don't follow your point at all.

(Not to mention the fact that with billions of star systems per galaxy, we probably don't need to look that far.)

[mooeypoo]

No, we won't need to look far, but the odds are that the lifeforms that are CLOSER, are not similar.

Think about the odds of finding in such a huge universe life forms that not only have evolved similarly (having eyes, legs and so on), have also developed QUICKER and really close to us.

I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying it's more logical that the lives that ARE close, are not like us at ALL.


if.. err that made any sense grammatically.

~moo

[Sayonara³]

I see what you're saying, but I don't see what 'similarity to us' or level of technological advancement has to do with the overall chances of finding intelligent life off Earth.

[Sayonara³]

The speciation discussion is now here:
http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3527

[dave]

Hmm, kinda out of the question.

Unless faf/blike have a momentary lapse in mentality and make you a mod.

[java]

I dont know if there is intelligent life beyond earth. I think that it is possible for us humans to live on others planets if we so wanted to. I dont believe there is any other form of existence besides animals and humans.

Java

[Bryn]

If there are other aliens close by it's quite possible they would be alot like us. Dunno if it's been proven but it's certainly a theory that simple bacteria/viruses or just bits of RNA/DNA could be flung out from whether they evolved into space and then populate other worlds. So they would have a similiar basically molecular/cellular structure to us. So there could easily be aliens like us, not perhaps strictly humanoid in structure but closer than you might think.

If the above is possible i think it'd be a lot more probably that aliens living locally would be related to us than aliens who have evolved of there own accord.

[dave]

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't some form of extraterrestrial life out there, but given the conditions that we have it must be fairly rare - whether it exists at the same time and at the same evolutionary stage as us is the question we should probably be asking.

[aman]

If aliens evolved more mental than physical and had less need for technology for advancment, I think they would be horrified by the brutal nasty portion of all our existances. Still this tempers our growth and makes us an extremely resiliant and interesting lifeform. I can't imagine better circumstances than ours to make a very tough lifeform. If others evolve we will have to be pretty patient to judge them and spend a great effort understanding them.
Just aman

[mooeypoo]

I dont know if there is intelligent life beyond earth. I think that it is possible for us humans to live on others planets if we so wanted to. I dont believe there is any other form of existence besides animals and humans.

That's depressing... we're all alone...

Seriously though -- I find that either naive or patronizing-the-universe.. There's an infinite universe, and we're the center of it (the ONLY ONLY LIFE FORMS EXISTING!)... does that sound plausible?

It *might* be the case, but it's going to have to demand someone PLANNING it this way which would make it less reasonable and will demand a proof of its own.
Therefore, the LOGICAL thing to say is that there *are* life out there, and only if shown otherwise there aren't any.

If there are other aliens close by it's quite possible they would be alot like us.
Uhm... why's that?


~moo

[dave]

Seriously though -- I find that either naive or patronizing-the-universe.. There's an infinite universe, and we're the center of it (the ONLY ONLY LIFE FORMS EXISTING!)... does that sound plausible?

How do you know the universe is infinite?

But apart from that, I agree with you. There must be life somewhere else in the universe; the place is just too big for there not to be. However, the chances of there being life at the same stages of evolution as us is (in my opinion) very small indeed.

[mooeypoo]

You're right. I don't know the universe is infinite.. I'm guessing, based on logical assumptions made by observations into space and mathematical calculations.

I allow myself to assume that, but you're definately right in saying it's not certain, and most definately is FAR away from being a proven fact.

I still think we're not alone though :)

And I wouldn't say "stage" of evolution because some planets might be older or newer - I would say just different evolution alltogether. It's not that we'll find lesser species (we might, but not all of them will be most probably) == we'll just find DIFFERENT species.
I don't even think we'll be able to communicate on the same level because our definitions of practically everything would be different. They might not even fit our regular definition of life. It's still a definition we made to describe LIFE ON EARTH.

We can never know what's out there.

~moo

[dave]

We're almost certainly not alone, but (apparently) the form of life we're most likely to encounter is something like single celled lifeforms or bacterium.

[me6]

Well, if a human goes up in a spacescraft (or shuttle, which ever you prefer) and lands on the moon, then YES. :-)

[mooeypoo]

Anyone ever thought of the possibility we already HAVE met "aliens" we just don't know it?
It may be either 1) they're out of our preception abilities, or 2) something htat has been here for a while and "evolved" with us -- like cocroaches or deep sea fish or something...

I just ponder that thought sometimes .. ;)

~moo

[ExtraSense]

Did you try to communicate with cockroaches?

[mooeypoo]

Did you read my post?

What if we CANT communicate with aliens? does that make them not aliens? how does communicating has ANYTHING to do with this?

[Sayonara³]

Sayonara3, you are a stinky PIG!
Stay away from My Threads
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
This isn't your thread, idiot.

[mooeypoo]

COULD YOU STOP RUINING PERFECTLY GOOD THREADS!! GEEZ.

I vote we all put that idiot on ban. That way, it REALLY doesn't matter what he says and we can all continue debating in a NORMAL way.

Nobody care what he thinks anyways.

All for it say aye.
And click "ignore list".

~proud israeli prostitute on a camel that goes moo

[mooeypoo]

And please lets get back to the subject. Life on other planets is a GOOD subject. I'd love to continue debate.

Where were we..?

[Sayonara³]

Hey! Look what I found :D (http://www.scienceforums.net/forums/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=1541)

[dave]

rofl

<clickety clickety>

(most people won't get this unless you've read bofh).

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

Yay for Sayanora!
Clap clap clap!
I'd take Mooeypoo's suggestion and ban him (unless you want the humor)

[mooeypoo]

Oh no, see, Israeli prostitutes has SOME sort of class even for that sort of humor.

<grin> I had to say that one more time :P


~moo

[Sayonara³]

This is an opportunity to change my user title.

[mooeypoo]

ROFL.

Too bad I can't change mine... I'd change it to israeli prosti-- ok ok the joke is pretty much used from all directions. I'll just stop :P

~moo

[dave]

This is an opportunity to change my user title.
Hmm, need to change mine really.

[-Demosthenes-]

What does it do if I add him to the ignore list? I added him, but what does it do.
One more thing, just be quiet "extrasense" I don't see why you have the work "sense" as part of your name, becasue you don't have any. And as a firend, I don't think you should talk to people, you only make peole mad with the stupid stuff you say, sorry.

Anyway...Extraterretrial life?

[dave]

If you ignore him, it basically filters out all of his posts unless you specifically click on them to read them.

[-Demosthenes-]

Ah, that will be usefull in the future...Jk :D

[dave]

Okay guys, back on topic now :-)

[MandrakeRoot]

I dont understand why would alien life (if it exists) necessarily be lesser life forms ?
If you can define lesser ofcourse !
The whole concept of lesser life is ridiculous since you calculate it by a criterium that is something proper to our physiology. For exemple we call a dog a lesser life form because he cant write down math equations or in any case communicate his thoughts on math equations (purpose of life etc...) to us in a comprehensible way (for us again). But if we would have taken as a criterium finding stuff by smell then it would be us the lesser life form.
So well the same thing would account for extraterrestrial life. If we wouldnt understand them, that wouldnt mean they are lesser !
I would say that it is highly probable that there are many life forms out there in many different stages of evolution, since if you look to it, the universe is pretty old (10 mlj years i think no ?), and our solar system is only 5 mlj years old, Earth is approx "habitable" since only 4 mjld years and life is here in the most simple form since approx the same time i guess, but well many setbacks have whiped out the entire population of animals in course of evolution. So the path to our evolution has been set in approx 65 million years ago, and we are here maybe since 100.000 years, which is pretty small compared to the age of the universe. So any lucky planet where life began in the same time as here on earth (but without the disasters) could contain life way more advanced (from whatever perspective)
Since there are so many stars, there are probably many planets like ours (if that is needed for life?) and thus surely some that have known developments of evolution like ours.

I dont believe in the UFO stories though !
Clearly "aliens" would not visit our planet and waste there time making circles in crops or stupid stuff like that. Could you imagine us doing that ?
After years of research or in whatever way, we finally arrive to a planet habited by aliens (with all the technical difficulties of such huge space travels) and then we would stay hanging around, not letting them detect us and make circles in their fields just to amuse us ?
Highly unlikely i would say !

What would be the argument against the existence of extraterrestrail life for those that dont "believe" in it ?

Mandrake

[admiral_ju00]

I dont understand why would alien life (if it exists) necessarily be lesser life forms ?

me too


Since there are so many stars, there are probably many planets like ours (if that is needed for life?) and thus surely some that have known developments of evolution like ours.

statistically, it is very, very possible that there is life out there. realistically, we'll probably won't ever find it.


I dont believe in the UFO stories though !
Clearly "aliens" would not visit our planet and waste there time making circles in crops or stupid stuff like that. Could you imagine us doing that ?
After years of research or in whatever way, we finally arrive to a planet habited by aliens (with all the technical difficulties of such huge space travels) and then we would stay hanging around, not letting them detect us and make circles in their fields just to amuse us ?
Highly unlikely i would say !

you're right

What would be the argument against the existence of extraterrestrail life for those that dont "believe" in it ?

oh i dunno, how about anything 'god' related? :-p

[aommaster]

When I did the drake equation, I got something like 50 as an answer!

[J'Dona]

I'm not sure what mlj means MandrakeRoot, but I think the best known age of the universe is 13.7 billion years (scaled down from 10-15 billion after they got better reading on the background microwave radiation by some new probe). The solar system is probably about 5 billion, and the Earth is something like 4.6 billion they think. But none of it really matters anyway, just values. :)
I dont believe in the UFO stories though !
Clearly "aliens" would not visit our planet and waste there time making circles in crops or stupid stuff like that. Could you imagine us doing that ?
After years of research or in whatever way, we finally arrive to a planet habited by aliens (with all the technical difficulties of such huge space travels) and then we would stay hanging around, not letting them detect us and make circles in their fields just to amuse us ?
Highly unlikely i would say !Umm, whereas I agree that it's strange, we have to remember that aliens might have completely different psychologies and agendas than us. A particular alien might see an immediate meaning in a crop circle, and they assume that we will, but it's just nonsense to us. Doesn't mean they wouldn't though. Although I'd just like to say that I don't believe that UFO's in Earth are real, and also if an alien race is intelligent enough to get here, they'd surely have the sense to do a background check on us and realise that a circle in a field means precisely nothing to us.

[mooeypoo]

The reason I don't believe UFO stories, is because I doubt the aliens that exists out there are so similar to us physically (gray but has two eyes, two hands, mouth, nose, legs and so on, looking just like humans) AND furthermore other than hysterical stories there are ABSOLUTELY no proof that supports this. All those weirdo pictures are either electronically editted or too far to actually see or know if it's a UFO or a military new aircraft.

I won't be surprised to hear that there are alien life forms on earth that we either don't see, or that we didnt think they're aliens (like what I said with the cocroaches) OR that they're in the deep deep ocean for instance.

I doubt they're walking amongst us or flying above our heads with a weird agenda to scare old lonely ladies or crazed old men.

Though it might suggest a very twisted sense of humor... ;)

~moo

[MandrakeRoot]

Hi,

With mlj i meant milliard = billion. Sorry about the confusion.

Even with a god argument the existence of extraterrestrial life would not be impossible. God could surely have been fed up of seeing us f**k it up each time he gave us confidence, or he just wanted to create another species that hopefully this time would not destroy his creation ?
Or why would god create a universe so big, but really sooooooooooo very big compared to our small nature (on universal scale) and just populate one tiny little planet out there letting the rest a lifeless dessert ?
Even the most inhabitable place on earth has life on it, if you think to it, so why would god not do that also in the universe ?

mooeypoo what do you mean with alien life on earth ?
If somehow bacteria arrived here and evolved into us (or something else), then it would be terrestrial life i would say, since lifeforms actually shape a planet and we would co-life on it since a long time already.

Mandrake

[Sayonara³]

This being the exobiology forum, the over-riding assumption is that life can evolve off Earth.

God arguments are redundant in exobiology. We're looking for life because we already expect it to be there.

[admiral_ju00]

isn't milliard a russian word?

anyway, i'm just curious.

[MandrakeRoot]

I have no idea ?
Isn't it english ?
Anyhow "Miljard" is a dutch word, but that is not the same writing.

Mandrake

[mooeypoo]

I know it's how you say a million million in hebrew. But hebrew is never a good example for world-wide terms :P

And Mandrake, I think I've lost you. I don't really understand what you are saying, can you please explain? Do you believe in life beyond space, or don't you?

mooeypoo what do you mean with alien life on earth ?
If somehow bacteria arrived here and evolved into us (or something else), then it would be terrestrial life i would say, since lifeforms actually shape a planet and we would co-life on it since a long time already.


Uhm, well, I guess that depends on personal definition? I don't know.. I'd say that terrestrial life are life that evolved and created on EARTH, and extra terrestrial life is anything that CAME here.
Changing on earth ? OF COURSE it's changing. It's evolving. Everything's evolving. If you take a fish from one lake to the other it will aventually evolve too, that doesn't mean it was CREATED in that lake, does it?

And I meant that we might have creatures here that we don't know about that might have came fom outer space. I don't mean those gray human-shaped ufo crap, I mean mostly deep-sea creatures, or perhaps even cocroaches (which don't fit to practically anything biological on earth mostly)

it's just a thought, I have nothing to support it only some vague ideas and assumptions. I just threw it as a general thought.


~moo

[ExtraSense]

In two years we'll feel like idiots..


Why wait, start right now :-)

[dave]

Why wait, start right now :-)

What?

[mooeypoo]

<picks a daisey>

To answer an idiot.... Not to answer an idiot.... to answer and idiot... not to answer...

oh hell, what does it matter. It just amuses me that I see ES's BSs through the replies he gets 'cause he's on my ignore list (highly recommended, by the way).

Anyone care to continune this debate without letting him destroy yet another good thread?

~moo

[admiral_ju00]

Anyone care to continune this debate without letting him destroy yet another good thread?

~moo

yub yub commander. i'm interested in how this goes.

by the way, i agree with you about the life in the deep-sea.

[Guy]

Okay some asked: if for instance the dinosaurs did not undergo a mass extinction, would their presence have had an impact on our individual evolution? obvoiously a joke question as the dinosaurs extinction allowed the continual progression & evolution of the human race. If the dinosaurs had of survived the whole environment would be different which would therefore make the dominant species or the so called humanoid species of a different race rather than ape. we would look totally different act different even comunicate differently. As for other species on other planets there is no way that their history or technology would be the same and have the same advancements. ie if you live on an island with high trees and there is food on the top of those trees you create a method to get that food (humans gift is not inteligence but imagination) but if you however live on an island where the food drops to the ground then why create a means to climb the tree. That is the basis of early human technology. There have been many a great inventor but the greatest fact is that if not for the early stages of development those early and great inventors (which is believe it or not what they were) then there would not of been einstein or Newton. So in retrospect even if the other planet had the same gravity (which would effect the outcomne and appearance of the species) the same plants because even a different plant has some form of effect on the outcome of that around it their technology still would not of progressed at the same rate. as needs is the reason behind most great invention (this is however based on humans). To critisise myself a speciesa on another planet may just build they may well live to build and create new things for the bettering of themselves rather than others. Their could be aliens on other planets that live as long as a common moth or live as long as a turtle. Som form of alien could be like a butterfly stating as a blob and then transforming to a beetle. there are to many maybe's but due to the humans ability to not get along (human beings greatest fault) there may never be a way to tell. Oh before I go my main beef is with the reports about Mars papers specify that there could be no life form but maybe the intelligent life lives in craters and eats rocks! or maybe they just hide i mean if a gorilla strolled into your living room what you gonna do try and pet it?

[Fudyomo]

I too believe that there is indeed life on other planets, I don't think there is any doubting that considering the vast amount of galaxies and stars in them. It will be interesting to examine the much older planets of our galaxy when we have the technology to do so, just to see if anything has evolved to a state beyond which we can even comprehend. I find this article pretty interesting :

http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/advanced_civilization_become.html

[MandrakeRoot]

I would still call life that evolved on earth regardless of its origins terrestrial life, as long as they fit in with the environement. Since any species that evolves on earth would have an impact on the eco-system and be part of it, if it is here long enough.
Then there presence effects others species that were here originally etc...
Other then that the first cell-life forms were made of atoms that werent necessarily here when earth formed (maybe, but that is not perse needed), and other then that earth formed from material coming from out of space. So either we are all alien according to your reasoning or we are not because we co-evolved with the planet.

Why would these deep sea fishes be extra-terrestrial ?
Yeah i think there is extra terrestrial life in the sense of species evolved on another planet.

Guy what is your point ?
That aliens are apriori not looking like us ?
But maybe there is a "winning configuration" as in one that can easily adept to almost any situation, that would anyway force some similarity in between aliens ?

Mandrake,

[mooeypoo]

Why would these deep sea fishes be extra-terrestrial ?
I didn't say they are, I said it's a possibility we may find extra-terrestrial life forms on earth already, and I gave an example of things we don't KNOW.

And I'm quite skeptical about the fact they might look like us. I believe that odds are not only are they not even SIMILAR to humans, they also might very well exist in ways we may not comprehend.

Like "thought". "intelligence". "sphere". or even something that is so beyond our understanding that we only comprehend PART of it, and translate what it is to something else entirely.

~moo